# Fall River mayor simultaneously loses and wins. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 13, 2019, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050 "2019-03-13T06:18:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/21 "2019-03-14T17:15:57Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > That’s not a simple solution. It can lead to a situation where more people vote to keep the incumbent than vote for any alternative. Imagine 49% vote no, but only 40% back the winner of the second question. > > But the solution used in this election is unnecessarily complicated. A simpler solution is to just not have the yes/no recall question at all. It’s unnecessary. Do it like in Wisconsin, where there’s just a fresh election for the remainder of the incumbent’s term. Yes, a fresh election is the simplest, it’s effectively what I was talking about but there is no reason to have a separate recall vote and election as I put it. So it’s not really a recall vote then, but just a new election in the middle of the existing term. Nothing wrong with that really. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/22 "2019-03-14T18:24:52Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And this is the _second_ time this has been said about someone named Correia! I saw what you did there… ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/23 "2019-03-14T20:11:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes, a fresh election is the simplest, it’s effectively what I was talking about but there is no reason to have a separate recall vote and election as I put it. So it’s not really a recall vote then, but just a new election in the middle of the existing term. Nothing wrong with that really. The problem is, without a runoff/ranked choice/etc., the result would have been the same. The mayor gets reelected with 30ish% of the vote, even though the majority of voters wanted him gone. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/24 "2019-03-15T03:56:46Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > The problem is, without a runoff/ranked choice/etc., the result would have been the same. The mayor gets reelected with 30ish% of the vote, even though the majority of voters wanted him gone. Or you could say that the majority of voters as a group didn’t want anyone else to be mayor. It’s all a silly situation when you try to hold a recall vote and an election on the same day. If it costs more money to do that then that is the price the citizens of Fall River must pay for electing a crook to be the mayor in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/25 "2019-03-15T05:30:58Z")
Unless you’re concerned that politicking, campaigns and PACs won’t have time to work their magic, it is clearly more efficient to hold both elections together, even though one is dependent on the other. That ballot should include phrasing like “In the event that #1 passes, what is your choice in #2?” Of course the ballot must be designed to be sensical and fair. You don’t need college math to understand that those who vote against a recall should still be allowed to vote on the replacement! Elections, like a Governor’s or Mayor’s race, where there will be exactly one winner are easier to set up. If/when the UK Parliament or public vote again on Brexit a ranked-choice ballot may be hard to set up but it can (and should?) be done. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/26 "2019-03-15T14:42:47Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Of course the ballot must be designed to be sensical and fair. You don’t need college math to understand that those who vote against a recall should still be allowed to vote on the replacement! Why? You are in effect giving that voter two votes. The voter is voting Corriera, but if he is recalled, then Candidate Y. The voters who vote for recall only get one choice. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/27 "2019-03-15T14:53:05Z")
Everyone gets to vote on whether to keep the incumbent. And then, if he’s replaced, everyone gets to vote on who replaces him. Thus, everyone gets two votes. Under your proposed system, how would you implement it if it were two separate elections? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/28 "2019-03-15T15:09:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Why? You are in effect giving that voter two votes. The voter is voting Corriera, but if he is recalled, then Candidate Y. The voters who vote for recall only get one choice. Suppose there are only three candidates: Mr. Blue (25%), Miss Pink (44%) and the incumbent, Mr. Scarlett (31%). I’ve shown the percentage of voters that have each one as first choice in parentheses. Pink and Scarlett are both Republicans. Assume that all Republicans hate the Democrat Mr. Blue. But Mr. Scarlett is very unpopular on both the left and the right. As you see, the R’s control the State 75-25. But in your method, the Rs cannot oust Scarlett without risk of giving the Governorship to Mr. Blue. Correct? Is this how you want to design the election? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/29 "2019-03-15T16:52:39Z")
[The City Council may remove him for being unfit for office.](https://turnto10.com/news/local/fall-river-city-councilors-call-for-another-vote-to-oust-mayor) > [@City of Fall River Charter](#): > > SECTION 3-8 > TEMPORARY ABSENCE OF THE MAYOR. > (a) > Acting Mayor - Whenever, by reason of sickness or other cause, the mayor is unable to perform the duties of the office, the president of the city council shall be the acting mayor unless the president of the city council is unable or unwilling to serve; in such instance, the provisions of section 3-8 (c) shall apply. The city council, by the affirmative vote of 7 members, shall determine whether the mayor is unable to perform the duties of the office. The vote shall be taken in public session by a roll call vote. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/30 "2019-03-15T20:24:18Z")
I imagine the voters hoped that by recalling Correia they would send him a message and teach him a powerful lesson about their intolerance of corruption. Then by electing him, they showed faith that he had learned his lesson while momentarily out of office and that they could forgive and forget. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/31 "2019-03-15T23:37:03Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What they should do is what California tried to do in the gubernatorial recall election in 2003 but a federal court inexplicably struck down. Which is, if you vote to retain the current elected official, you don’t get a vote on the replacement. [The law](https://casetext.com/case/partony-v-shelley) appears to have been that you could vote on the replacement regardless of how you voted in the recall question, but you couldn’t skip that question entirely: “The challenged provision, section 11382 of the California Elections Code, states that “No vote cast in the recall election shall be counted for any candidate unless the voter also voted for or against the recall of the officer sought to be recalled.” The question before the Court is whether this provision violates Plaintiffs’ First and Fourteenth Amendment rights of free expression and their right to vote for the person who will govern them.” ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/32 "2019-03-15T23:41:24Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Why? You are in effect giving that voter two votes. The voter is voting Corriera, but if he is recalled, then Candidate Y. The voters who vote for recall only get one choice. With the (dumb) way recall elections work in a lot of places, if you don’t let anti-recall voters vote on the second question, I think it would be a violation of one-person one-vote. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/33 "2019-03-16T00:00:23Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > [The City Council may remove him for being unfit for office.](https://turnto10.com/news/local/fall-river-city-councilors-call-for-another-vote-to-oust-mayor) It’s not really addressed except in the wording of the headline in the link but they tried that [once before](https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/11/06/fall-river-city-council-votes-confidence-correia/le1e0qP8ShGrMhKKbYgHeO/story.html). Last November they passed nonbinding resolutions of no confidence and calling for his resignation. The removal vote failed. It was 5-4 but the story doesn’t specify clearly whether it was five votes to remove or four. Maybe 2-3 council members changed their minds in the meantime. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/34 "2019-03-16T22:47:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Everyone gets to vote on whether to keep the incumbent. And then, if he’s replaced, everyone gets to vote on who replaces him. Thus, everyone gets two votes. > > Under your proposed system, how would you implement it if it were two separate elections? You have Candidate A, the current officeholder subject to recall. Candidates B, C, and D are running in the event he is recalled. Everyone has a choice between all of the candidates. If you want Candidate A, you vote against the recall and have cast your vote. If you want Candidates B, C or D, you vote in favor of the recall and then your preferred candidate and have cast your vote. If you are allowed to vote against the recall and then vote for say, Candidate C, you have been given an additional vote. You get a vote for A, but if A is not elected, you get a vote for C. Nobody else can do that. I cannot vote for B, but if he is not elected then D. Those against a recall get an advantage that other voters do not. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/35 "2019-03-17T11:50:05Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > … If you are allowed to vote against the recall and then vote for say, Candidate C, you have been given an additional vote… I discussed your method in #28 and asked you about it. Answer? Questions? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/36 "2019-03-18T00:17:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Suppose there are only three candidates: Mr. Blue (25%), Miss Pink (44%) and the incumbent, Mr. Scarlett (31%). I’ve shown the percentage of voters that have each one as first choice in parentheses. > > Pink and Scarlett are both Republicans. Assume that all Republicans hate the Democrat Mr. Blue. But Mr. Scarlett is very unpopular on both the left and the right. As you see, the R’s control the State 75-25. But in your method, the Rs cannot oust Scarlett without risk of giving the Governorship to Mr. Blue. > > Correct? Is this how you want to design the election? I’m not following you. Suppose there are a hundred people. The first question on the ballot is: Do we recall Mr. Scarlett? The results are: 69 YES 31 NO. Scarlett is removed. Round 2 is who is Scarlett’s replacement? The vote is: 44 PINK 25 BLUE Pink is elected. Pink was favored by a plurality of voters. The result is correct. If you let Scarlett’s voters vote on the second question, they have a secondary choice that is unavailable to any other voters. I can vote Scarlett, then Pink or Scarlett, then Blue. But I cannot vote Pink then Blue, or Blue then Pink, or Blue then Scarlett, or Pink then Scarlett. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/37 "2019-03-18T16:12:05Z")
Sorry. I bamboozled myself with the arithmetic. :smack: How about Mr. Blue (40%), with Miss Pink and the incumbent Mr. Scarlett splitting the other 60% (whether 25-35 or 35-25). Now the Rs won’t retain the Governorship unless those who like Scarlett are smart enough to vote for Pink (or vice versa — the Rs better get their signals straight). True, this could happen whenever two Rs run and split the R vote but that wouldn’t normally happen in the primary/general system … _except_ in a recall election. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/38 "2019-03-18T16:16:26Z")
Good lord! Get yourself a deputy mayor, governor, dog catcher, whatever. Hold the recall vote. If it succeeds then Barney Fife steps in and you hold a new election. One of these things has to go before the other to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050/39 "2019-03-18T22:01:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Sorry. I bamboozled myself with the arithmetic. :smack: > > How about Mr. Blue (40%), with Miss Pink and the incumbent Mr. Scarlett splitting the other 60% (whether 25-35 or 35-25). > Now the Rs won’t retain the Governorship unless those who like Scarlett are smart enough to vote for Pink (or vice versa — the Rs better get their signals straight). True, this could happen whenever two Rs run and split the R vote but that wouldn’t normally happen in the primary/general system … _except_ in a recall election. I take your point, and it is a good one. I think it highlights the pitfalls of the recall system more than it does my proposal. If we have the scenario of Blue 40, Scarlett 35, and Pink 25, then under our plurality system, Blue should win, but under either of our proposals, he would lose. Recalls just don’t lend themselves to the primary system, and again, under the current system, under this hypo, only the Republican party gets a “primary.” If I am a Democrat and don’t like Blue, I don’t get a different choice. Recalls also, IMHO, don’t seem like a good thing. Impeachment and removal are there for serious issues, so if you simply just don’t like what the elected official is doing, then wait until his or her term is up. There is something to be said for the idea that the official was given a term of office to allow his policies to develop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-river-mayor-simultaneously-loses-and-wins/831050.md?page=1)