# Fallacies get imprinted young... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237 "2005-05-24T07:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/181 "2005-05-25T13:15:35Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Minor hijack: > > Last Friday night, Cincinnati Reds relief pitcher Danny Graves successfully closes out a 2-1 win against the Cleveland Indians, and points his finger at the sky in praise/thanks/recognition of The Big Guy’s role in his achievement. > > However, the Indians take the next two games, including a debacle Sunday in which Graves is called on to keep the Reds close in the top of the ninth inning, instead giving up 5 runs and getting only one out. As he leaves the field, Graves is heckled by the fans and responds with another gesture, using a different finger this time. Monday, Graves is released by the team. > > Question: Why is Jesus punishing the loyal Danny Graves? Maybe I’m just really dense, but I don’t really get what you’re trying to prove here. That since one Christian acted hypocritically, all Christians are hypocrites? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/182 "2005-05-25T13:21:47Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Maybe I’m just really dense, but I don’t really get what you’re trying to prove here. That since one Christian acted hypocritically, all Christians are hypocrites? Ah good, a new strawman! This debate was getting rather dull. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/183 "2005-05-25T13:25:46Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Maybe I’m just really dense, but I don’t really get what you’re trying to prove here. That since one Christian acted hypocritically, all Christians are hypocrites? No, just that Christian hypocrites are often annoying. Who said anything to suggest that _all_ Christians are hypocrites? Perhaps you should brush the straw out of your hair and reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/184 "2005-05-25T14:04:32Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Even the “god is hands-off” idea, while being a complex issue meriting thought and discussion, is defensible in a way that this hogwash is not. Some of these people seemingly believe in a God who is good enough to grant miracles at random. Not for those who are necessarily best and purest of heart, or those most faithful, or through any standard: God can cure cancer, and He does so at His Divine Whim. The God who observes human evil with sadness is surely a much better being than the God of Arbitrariness that some people worship. God save me from a whimisical God–although I do think He has a wicked sense of humor. How is your God less arbitrary than mine? Picking which little girl gets to live thru hell–oh, because He “has plans” for her(otherwise, why would she not have died)–a platitude that has been used for centuries to make people feel better. To my mind, the statement that God has plans for me is hubris-who am I to know one way or another what God plans? Heck-He may well have “plans” for this girl-who am I to say? but my question is–where is that all encompassing love that God has for His creation, if he lets some little girls die (never mind being raped and tortured!), as well as all the other evils in this sad world? The girl did not choose for this to happen to her-and would have avoided it at all costs, I am sure. Where is her choice? Her freewill? Or does that only apply to the perps, not the victims? Where is grace in all of this? If a little girl is approached by a molester and runs away-is that the grace of God? Then why not this girl? She didn’t get away, but she lived…so that is an example of God’s grace, too? And what of the Pollys of the world, and the Ambers…they didn’t live to thank God…did He love them so much that He wanted them with Him right away and so chose a cruel and unloving way to get them there? Don’t know about you, but that makes me mad as hell. What an arbitrary bastard-who could respect someone who acts in such a way? You cannot have it both ways. Either God loves us and every evil act done by Man hurts God, too(which means he is not all powerful, or all knowing–because He would not overburden the objects of his love in the ways that He does). Or God tinkered around a bit, made us and cut us loose. 3rf way: there is no God. He does NOT get to take credit for “saving” this girl with His “grace” whilst allowing others to die of hunger or wounds or terror. (note that I am not arguing that the girl should not have thanked him–that is her business). It doesn’t make sense logically; it doesn’t make sense (to me) spiritually. Religion can be a great comfort to those in need. But it sure doesn’t hold up in cases like this–unless you refuse to look beneath the surface and ask the hard questions. If God is all knowing and all powerful-he created my brain and my ability to critically think. I cannot stop using my brain in order to remain faithful to God. I would rather not have that source of support than to be less than I am-an averagely intelligent, somewhat attractive mother. and wife. Somehow, I think my God is ok with that. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/185 "2005-05-25T14:26:12Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Ah good, a new strawman! > This debate was getting rather dull. Would you like to contribute to actually contribute to the discussion, or just nip at my heels? > [@Excalibre](#): > > No, just that Christian hypocrites are often annoying. Who said anything to suggest that _all_ Christians are hypocrites? Perhaps you should brush the straw out of your hair and reconsider. The example made no sense to me, I was honestly attempting to clarify. Perhaps you’d like to let **Jackmannii** answer for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/186 "2005-05-26T02:16:22Z")
Just wanted to post this in aid of the “God helped me win but didn’t make the other guy lose” tangent of this discussion. I have here the American Idol Showstoppers CD (one song from each finalist, plus a group number). God is all over the dedications. **Ensemble: First and foremost, we realize that this opportunity would not be possible without the presence and help of God.** Well, that’s great, but that goes along with what some people have been saying: if **everything** is up to god, then what difference does it make in the grand scheme how well an individual or a small group fares? **Bo Bice: I would like to thank God, the Downes family, the Bice family…[list of people that includes his church and pastor]…** Well, he’s an active member of his church, and that coincided with his rehab. So I wouldn’t call it gratuitous. But why god first? (And who the heck are the Downes family?) **Lindsey Cardinale: There are many words in which a heart cannot express. [whaaa?] I want to do my best in taking time to thank God for the many blessings and the talent in which he has given me.** Well, that’s reasonable, to think that god gave you your talent, and what you **do** with it is up to you. **Anthony Federov: Does not mention God.** But he wasn’t born in America, and presumably did not get the Yay!Jesus! indoctrination. **Mikalah Gordon: First and foremost, thanks to the big GOD! Holler at ya, boy! I really wouldn’t have made it without him!** Well, beyond the fact that my mind boggles at calling god “boy”, this is another example of giving god direct credit for a personal triumph. **Constantine Maroulis: Does not mention God.** But if he’s Greek Orthodox (and I really don’t know, so correct me if I’m wrong) then, like Federov, he may not have been raised to give the Big Guy credit for everything. **Anwar Robinson: First and foremost, I thank God, who is responsible for every breath and experience that I will have.** Another one that I wonder if he also credits god for the negative stuff. **Scott Savol: First I would like to thank my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gives me the strength to endure my opposition.** I think he’s another active church member. And he’s making himself part of the equation rather than saying it’s all about God/Jesus. (Although he was the one always praying and pointing upwards during results shows.) But the way they’re all thanking god **first** , right off the bat, before their parents even, is starting to bug. There was a time when people thanked god **last** , like an “amen”, and as if it almost went without saying, but they were going to say it anyway. Now it’s like, gotta mention god right up front before someone thinks I’m a commie or something. **Jessica Sierra: Does not mention God.** I don’t know much about her, so I don’t know why that might be. **Nikko Smith: First I wanna thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for all the blessings that have been laid upon me.** **Vonzell Solomon: I thank God for all of the many blessings he has sent my way.** Well, okay, so not everyone is saying that god personally got them a spot in the final 12. But again, they’re so hasty with the “blessings” talk. **Nadia Turner: God, my creator, life and friend. You are everything and I thank You for all you do.** Oh for cryin’ out loud. (And why capitalize one “you” but not both?) **Carrie Underwood: I would first like to thank God for giving me this wonderful gift and opening the doors for me to share it.** Here we go again. God arguably gave you your talent, but I honestly don’t think he has a vested interest in American Idol. He didn’t personally “open doors” for you; that’s a people thing, not a god thing. And something else I wonder about. So many AI hopefuls are shown saying something along the lines of “It’s up to what God wants for me if I make it or not.” Then, when they’re cut or voted off, especially the ones who are cut by the judges before they get to the semis, some of them take it pretty hard. Not that I blame them, but I wonder if any of the same people saying “It’s up to God”, later say, “Well, I guess God **didn’t** want this for me” when they get rejected? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/187 "2005-05-26T17:32:04Z")
Good God-I hope that God has better things to do than watch American Idol. Don’t know who said it first, but, to me, we are all too ready to ascribe to God what is really Man’s(bad and good). Talent, showmanship (and for all I know hummers or bribes) win you AI. God has nothing to do with it. He also doesn’t have anything to do with you losing or getting voted off the island(oops, wrong show). I do think that there is a force (Jeebus,more starwars shit) in the universe that prods at us to grow and change. Call it God, Jesus, Mohammed,Yahweh, Vishnu whoever–but it is not material; it is not physical. In fact, the outward manifestation of it would be shown thru behavior, not a higher SES or similiar. So, I still think that God had nothing to do with that girl’s rescue–UNLESS He happened to have taught the cop patience and vigilance earlier in the cop’s life-who knows? But again, that is all within the cop-the girl cannot effect that in the least. She was buried under rubble. Now, maybe God had taught her patience–who can say? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/188 "2005-05-26T19:10:13Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Good God-I hope that God has better things to do than watch American Idol. Well, he’s supposed to be all-seeing. I bet he wasn’t so thrilled with that ability when “Homeboys From Outer Space” was still on. ---
**Author:** ![\_icious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/ecb155/32.png) [@\_icious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_icious)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/189 "2005-06-14T11:19:49Z")
I thought what the girl meant was that she wanted to thank God for the fact that she was alive, as in He created everything, just because she had a new appreciation for life or something. Not that she thought God saved her life in the end, although maybe she believed that too. Either way, it’s extremely pointless to argue about the nature of God, or whatever it is you’re arguing about. Just move on. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/190 "2005-06-14T11:22:26Z")
> [@\\/icious](#): > > Either way, it’s extremely pointless to argue about the nature of God, or whatever it is you’re arguing about. Just move on. Boy, are you in for a surprise. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![\_icious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/ecb155/32.png) [@\_icious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_icious)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/191 "2005-06-14T11:26:59Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Boy, are you in for a surprise. 😃 What do you mean? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![\_icious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/ecb155/32.png) [@\_icious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_icious)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/192 "2005-06-14T11:34:59Z")
> [@\\/icious](#): > > What do you mean? ☹ Wow, this thread ended a long time ago… :dubious: Well, I’m off to post in another old thread! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/193 "2005-06-14T11:37:23Z")
> [@\\/icious](#): > > What do you mean? ☹ I mean that at four pages, this is a relatively short thread for one that has a religious topic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237.md?page=9)