# Fallacies get imprinted young... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237 "2005-05-24T07:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/61 "2005-05-24T13:15:16Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > It’s all just so damn hypocritical, this God business. Say what you want, but this “God” fellow has one hell of a PR machine. -Joe, RP machine ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/62 "2005-05-24T13:20:49Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Growth comes afterwards once healing has finished. I think perfect rationality is the last thing we should be expecting out of a child that has gone through what she went through. I think that’s why the Pitting focused more on what she was taught than what she believes. It’s harsh to take an eight year old to task for their beliefs, ridiculous to do so with an eight year old traumatized out of her mind. I suppose this is another way of saying “hate the belief not the believer”, if you’ll allow me that liberty. But with that being said, I do think that healing and growth can come through rational means too, even while you’re still hurting. I personally would rather see her going to a counselor/psychologist in order to deal with the reality of the situation and overcome it, rather than retreating into a comforting illusion. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/63 "2005-05-24T13:21:00Z")
You know, this reminds me of my lecturer for modal logic, who repeatedly gave anecdotes about his five-year-old daughter, who would ask things like “Daddy, daddy; is it true that the system KD4 (that is K plus (4) and (D)) is adequate with respect to D4-validity, where a D4-model is one where \ is both serial and transitive?” He would then go on to mercilessly catch her in a glaring logical fallacy, crushing her in the iron fist of modal reason. The difference, of course, is that _he_ was joking. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I can’t shake the feeling that there are coping mechanisms which don’t involve fair weather worship. We’re even judging the _constancy_ of her belief, now? Lordy. May I take this opportunity to remind you that she’s eight? And had just been raped? “Hey, kid, I know you’ve been through probably the most horrible ordeal possible, and are not even old enough to have fully grasped long division, but I’d like to have a chat about the fallacious and self-serving foundations of your coping mechanism, because frankly, I just don’t think you’re growing as a person.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/64 "2005-05-24T13:29:07Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > We’re even judging the _constancy_ of her belief, now? Lordy. Um… consistency is one of the means we can judge a belief by, yes. Beliefs have effects, we act on our beliefs, they inform our lives. The beliefs we hold are important. > [@Dead Badger](#): > > May I take this opportunity to remind you that she’s eight? And had just been raped? Yeah… I somehow missed that. > [@Dead Badger](#): > > “Hey, kid, I know you’ve been through probably the most horrible ordeal possible, and are not even old enough to have fully grasped long division, but I’d like to have a chat about the fallacious and self-serving foundations of your coping mechanism, because frankly, I just don’t think you’re growing as a person.” Oy vey. Nobody here has sent her a letter, post card, email, or smoke signal. The girl has no idea we’re talking about this. Yes, growing as a person is important, even if you’re only eight. Yes, growing as a person is a healthy, life-long way to deal with tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/65 "2005-05-24T13:53:28Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Second, unless you know what “God” means to her you can’t call fallacy (assuming she doesn’t think God causes bad things). Believe it or not, most religions have adressed the whole “Why do bad things happen?” question, and it’s entirely possible to believe in a good God that created a world where bad things happen. There are three, primarily. 1: We Don’t Know Why. It’s simple, requires little in the way of apologia, but isn’t much of an explanation. 2: We Can’t Know Why. Gets a little more press than the first. Is an absolute non-answer to the followup sequence of questions (“Why can’t we?”). 3: They’re Not Really Bad Things. This is the path that **Lib** and a few others have taken. Since the child will live forever in Christ, whatever sufferings she experiences in the real world are no more meaningful and permanent than a bad dream. However, this line of reasoning needs to be absolute for it to work, and if there is no evil in this world, than what good can be done? How can it be good to help someone if it isn’t evil to harm them? 4: They’re Not Really Good People. This one gets a depressingly large amount of air time. Thankfully, it’s not cropped up in this debate yet. None of these satisfy me, personally. So, if you were referring to an explanation that actually, you know, explained things, please refer me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/66 "2005-05-24T14:02:03Z")
Seriously, why does it matter to you all that an eight year old girl thanks God for her rescue? Any port in a storm…and all that. If it makes her feel better and it helps her (hell, even if it doesn’t) why do you care? Does someone mentioning God mean that you have to point out how wrong they are? If someone takes comfort in the belief that thier God has helped them, why do some people have a need to stand up and say “you are wrong”? What does it hurt to let them believe that thier God has saved them? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/67 "2005-05-24T14:01:53Z")
On the one hand, the people calling “fallacy” here have logic on their side. Yes, if you’re considering yourself the official impartial arbiter of praise and blame for the events in your life, then if you thank an omniscient omnipotent God for saving your life after you got raped, you also have to rebuke an omniscient omnipotent God for raping you. On the other hand, this sort of argument reminds me of the persnicketude of people who gleefully jump on theoretical logical inconsistencies in conventional phrases whose meaning is pefectly well understood. “Hi, how are you?” “Oh, does that mean you want to hear the results of my latest medical exam?” or “Your cat died? I’m so sorry.” “Why are you apologizing? Are you the one who killed her?” or “I thank God I was rescued from that terrible ordeal!” “Well then, you also have to diss God for putting you through the ordeal in the first place, don’t you?” Logical persnicketers, cut it out. There are perfectly valid psychological reasons for concentrating on gratitude for good outcomes and neglecting resentment for bad ones, even if it’s not totally fair and balanced from a logical standpoint. It’s well known that our brain chemistry tends to make us forget bad experiences more readily than good ones (producing our predisposition to “happy childhood” and “good old days” memories). Our mental health more or less **requires** us to focus emotionally on positive feelings instead of negative ones. In fact, people who remember painful experiences just as acutely as pleasurable ones are likely to be clinically depressed. From that perspective, it makes perfect sense for someone to disregard “God raping them” and focus on “God rescuing them after they were raped”. It may not be logically balanced, but it accurately expresses emotional truth. In fact, if you look at theology in a materialistic psychological way (note, though, that I’m neither a theologian nor a psychologist), the whole concept of an omniscient omnipotent God who is thanked for good but not blamed for evil is probably ultimately an expression of our fundamental tendency to stress gratitude and happiness over blame and resentment. So stop getting your persnickety knickers in a twist whenever someone expresses a belief along those lines. On the third hand, though, the people who are all shocked and horrified about how cruelly the logical persnicketers are acting towards a traumatized eight-year-old are also overreacting. **Of course** nobody is suggesting making such criticisms **to the girl herself** or to anybody else in a similar situation: they’re just grumbling about the fundamental illogic of the principle involved. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/68 "2005-05-24T14:17:43Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > This is silly. Who cares that her guardian raised her to be religious? Why is that a bad thing? How do we know that she hasn’t thanked Sgt. Mike Hall? It honestly doesn’t bother me that children are taught religion. Hey, I was raised Catholic. I think I reached the age of reason at about 12 or 13 years old. 😃 So there’s hope yet. But to answer your question, no, it’s not bad to be raised religious. If it makes you feel great, wonderful. Alleluhah all you want! But I feel that the logic is severely lacking in the thanking God department. Bush’s Wife might even agree with that… on television no less. That’s how confident I am on the removing this peticular aspect of teaching from modern religion. > [@Metacom](#): > > What a rotten little bitch. How dare she attribute to God what she could have attributed to a police officer and probability? We know she wanted to thank God, which means she obviously didn’t thank the police officer. > > That little shit should have dropped to her knees and said “Thank you officer, for saving my life. I’m glad you evolved and happened to be in the right place at the right time to save me. God doesn’t exist, and the losers that believe in it are a bunch of _SNORT_ conformists. I wish the Christians weren’t trying to take over are country and make it into Jesus land.” > > _Then_ she’d be a cool eight year old. Instead, she has to pull this shit and be a total little loser. That cop should’ve left that ungrateful little cunt there to rot, so she couldn’t thin the gene pool with her idiocy. > Sometimes this board can be a really, really ugly place. You and **Liberal** should start a fan club. :rolleyes: Unless you’re being sarcastic, you both completely missed the point. I’m not condemning her for what she has said. Her story just brought up the issue of how this kind of logic is just pure bullshit. I’m pitting more of the aspect of being taught outright lies to any child. Children are in no doubt impresionable, as evidenced by the large amount of defiant believers. So how about we stick with some facts, okay? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Perhaps she did thank the good sergeant, I haven’t seen that she hadn’t. I’ve yet to see any mention of it either. Media Bias? That simply doesn’t happen it todays world. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is the problem. If God sent the cop, why not send him sooner? You know, I find it quite odd that when ever trouble occurs, God seems to always disappear. Where does he go? Maybe he’s taking breaks to do bong hits. It’s like he’s in a Superman Bizzaro World. But he always makes an appearence when something good happens. > [@Merijeek](#): > > Say what you want, but this “God” fellow has one hell of a PR machine. > > -Joe, RP machine And just as many who Rage Against it. > [@Dead Badger](#): > > May I take this opportunity to remind you that she’s eight? And had just been raped? Well captain obvious, did you happen to read my other posts? And most importantly, the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/69 "2005-05-24T14:23:20Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > Seriously, why does it matter to you all that an eight year old girl thanks God for her rescue? Any port in a storm…and all that. If it makes her feel better and it helps her (hell, even if it doesn’t) why do you care? Does someone mentioning God mean that you have to point out how wrong they are? > > If someone takes comfort in the belief that thier God has helped them, why do some people have a need to stand up and say “you are wrong”? What does it hurt to let them believe that thier God has saved them? Probably because it’s an attempt to turn a story about an attrocity into a Heart Warming Tale of Faith and Survival. It would have been more entertaining if she’d thanked Satan or Thor. -Joe, not equating Satan and Thor ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/70 "2005-05-24T14:30:55Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Maybe people are bitching about the fact that this kid, like most others, has been taught **what** to think, but not **how** to think. Are you sure you don’t mean that she hasn’t been taught how to think like you? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/71 "2005-05-24T14:33:30Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > Unless you’re being sarcastic I was being sarcastic. I don’t really think the little girl that was just raped and buried alive is a “rotten little bitch.” > [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > I’m not condemning her for what she has said. Her story just brought up the issue of how this kind of logic is just pure bullshit. It’s not your place to tell someone that taking solace in God is bullshit. > [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > I’m pitting more of the aspect of being taught outright lies to any child. So your not pitting the little girl that was raped, your pitting the religion that’s comforting her afterwards? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/72 "2005-05-24T14:34:09Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Probably because it’s an attempt to turn a story about an attrocity into a Heart Warming Tale of Faith and Survival. I don’t see that. I see a little girl who is trying to work through something very bad that happened to her. If it helps her and makes her feel better, where’s the harm. Why can’t people just say, “It’s not what I would have done, but to each his own”? Why the need to examine and re-examine how this **eight year old girl** is working through this? I just don’t understand what people get out of screaming at a believer that they are wrong and here is why they are wrong. As long as the person isn’t preaching to you, what is the harm in letting them have thier belief in God? -Daniel, not a believer ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/73 "2005-05-24T14:42:34Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Where were you? What kind of response is THAT to his statement? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/74 "2005-05-24T14:46:20Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > As long as the person isn’t preaching to you, what is the harm in letting them have thier belief in God? > -Daniel, not a believer I see it as preaching. A story with all sorts of details and yet that part just HAS to make it in. Why? Because it’s a Heartwarming Tale of Faith and Survival. I’ll happily ditch the thread if you’ll do this one for me, though. Explain to me how the media mentioning her asking for a Pastor ‘helps her work through things’. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/75 "2005-05-24T14:51:17Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Hey, a movie was made showing just a fragment of what God went through in time/space/matter history & you anti-religious haters bitched about that. Even if I didn’t believe in God, I wouldn’t bitch about people who take solace in a Deity & who teach that to their children when bad things happen. Don’t you think it would be better to just teach kids to be good and spare them the fairytale of selective mercy? What do you tell the kid when she asks “Why me, and not the little girl(s) that was kidnapped and killed a few months ago?” ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/76 "2005-05-24T14:57:53Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I see it as preaching. A story with all sorts of details and yet that part just HAS to make it in. Why? Because it’s a Heartwarming Tale of Faith and Survival. > > I’ll happily ditch the thread if you’ll do this one for me, though. Explain to me how the media mentioning her asking for a Pastor ‘helps her work through things’. > > -Joe Then it would be news story that you see as preaching to you, correct? Not the little girl (who it appears can believe whatever she wants, in your opinion). So why not bitch about the way the media has decided to cover the story and not the fact that an eight year old little girl (who has been through a hell of a thing) decided she wanted to thank God for her rescue? From what I’ve seen in this thread people are complaining because she thanked God for her rescue, while not blaming him for her being in the situation in the first place. I just don’t get what difference it makes to anyone who she thanks or why it matters. All that I think should matter is that she was rescued. Asking for her Pastor’s spiritual guidance may very well help her work through things. It may not. As long as it makes her feel better, I don’t see the harm. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/77 "2005-05-24T15:01:06Z")
I do not believe that you can petition the lord with prayer. If you thank the god that rescues you then it seems reasonable to me to curse the god that allowed you to get into a horrible situation in the first place. By granting us free will, God cannot act as a Deus ex machina-rescuing some children while letting others perish in terrible circumstances. I personally could not worship such an arbitrary and cruel deity. I do pray however, but I pray for the courage and strength to face whatever I’m going though or for wisdom and understanding. I don’t ask God to wave a magic wand and fix things for me. When I was 8, I couldn’t make that distinction-it was a little too complex. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/78 "2005-05-24T15:09:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Oh sure. But apparently ParentalAdvisory doesn’t. He/she judged God by his/her own petty standards. It apparently never occured to him/her that God might have legitimate moral reasons to allow men to exercise their free will and commit the evil acts that they decide themselves to commit. Oh, right. The little girl chose to commit the evil act of being raped and nearly murdered. Now we all understand… ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/79 "2005-05-24T15:11:14Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > Then it would be news story that you see as preaching to you, correct? Not the little girl (who it appears can believe whatever she wants, in your opinion). So why not bitch about the way the media has decided to cover the story and not the fact that an eight year old little girl (who has been through a hell of a thing) decided she wanted to thank God for her rescue? From what I’ve seen in this thread people are complaining because she thanked God for her rescue, while not blaming him for her being in the situation in the first place. I just don’t get what difference it makes to anyone who she thanks or why it matters. All that I think should matter is that she was rescued. Asking for her Pastor’s spiritual guidance may very well help her work through things. It may not. As long as it makes her feel better, I don’t see the harm. The media reports. They opened a story with a statement made by her Godmother. The statement was: > [@](#): > > “She stated that she wanted a pastor to pray with her so she could thank God for saving her life,” Lisa Taylor, the godmother, told CNN. “She’s 8 years old. Isn’t that the most beautiful thing you’ve ever heard?” Of everything that happened, of the 100 police officers involved in the search and rescue this women chooses to (…wait for it…) PREACH. Yes, that’s it. Given a chance to speak in a national forum she doesn’t thank the police, she doesn’t warn people against taking strangers into their house if they have young children, and she doesn’t say she’d like a chance to kill the bastard (as mom did). No, she uses her platform to preach. And, it appears, to brag about how this eight year-old has been so thoroughly indoctrinated that it’s the most beautiful thing she’s ever heard. Strangely enough, the police chief actually used his platform to compliment the officer who found her. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/80 "2005-05-24T15:12:07Z")
Oddly enough, the thing that bothered me most was that “she asked for a pastor so she could thank God”. Why has she been taught she must have someone else thank God for her? That is control. I think someone posted above “taught what to think and not to think” - 'bout covers it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237.md?page=5)