# Fallacies get imprinted young... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237 "2005-05-24T07:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/121 "2005-05-24T17:10:53Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Because God had nothing to do with that person choosing a good act. Why thank God for the free will choice of an individual??? Even you admit God has nothing to do with the choices we make. So if God had nothing to do with the Cop choosing to do good and save the girl, why should he get our thanks for it? Why thank Him for the good things that happen (even if he has nothing to do with him) but not blame him for bad things that he has nothing to do with?? Bravo, Bear\_Nenno! ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/122 "2005-05-24T17:42:54Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Faulty premise. God is the agent Who facilitates goodness. There is no evil in Him.\ The reason we can is that the actual bible states that god causes bad things to happen. This is due to the fact that, as been already said, he claims to be mni-, and all that. It is pretty safe to assume these people are christians, seeing as how it is mention in the actual Op, and it is furthermore reasonable to believe that they actually have a simplified view of the bible in which there are no contradictions, and god is a all-powerful, all-knowing force that loves use all, and does battle with the forces of evil. Sure, so the belief that god is not responsable for evil contradicts the acual words of the bible in some places, (He created the fallen angels knowing full well they would fall.) and agees with them in others, ( I am god. I love you all. I am good, and want no harm to befall you.) but that is the impression I get when talking to most people. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/123 "2005-05-24T17:49:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > If God is responsible for every event in your life — including the buttons on your shirt — then everything you’re saying now is on His behalf. It is He speaking, and not you. Thank you for noticing. Liberal, shut the fuck up already. You ain’t doing me any favors here. –God ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/124 "2005-05-24T17:50:39Z")
Whoa. I musta blacked out there for a minute. Did I miss anything? ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/125 "2005-05-24T17:53:31Z")
> [@Lightnin'](#): > > Or are you saying that unbelievers are incapable of making proper ethical choices? Well, according to my mother, an unbeliever who _is_ capable of kindness, generosity, responsibility, and other moral “good-itudes” is really a believer. Now, whether that means they’re in _denial_, in the closet, or simply don’t realize (yet) that they are not, in fact, athiests after all, I dunno. But you see, proper ethical choices are **Christian Values** ™, which means that if you’re capable of making those choices, you’re a Christian, whether you want to be or not. So there. If you were truly an unbeliever, you’d be out setting kittens on fire. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/126 "2005-05-24T17:56:41Z")
> [@auntie em](#): > > If you were truly an unbeliever, you’d be out setting kittens on fire. > 😛 Hey, atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity. And you’re only denying what you know to be true deep down. You’re not a nonbeliever, you’re just pissed off at God. Just like in the movies. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/127 "2005-05-24T17:57:26Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > You know next to nothing about this girl’s beliefs, both prior to and after her rape. As has been pointed out, you don’t even know that she believes in an omni-everything interventionist God (OIG from now on), and while you blithely dismissed this point, it seems really rather crucial. She asked for a “pastor.” Therefore she is not Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, or anything else but a Protestant of some sort. As the OIG is a central tenet of all Christian sects that I can think of, it’s safe to assume that is the belief she has been taught. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/128 "2005-05-24T18:04:03Z")
> [@Hunter Hawk](#): > > Whoa. I musta blacked out there for a minute. Did I miss anything? Damn, that was funny. If I didn’t have some potentially bad Abner’s chicken doing cartwheels in my bowels I might not have been so afraid to let out a really loud laugh… -Joe, clenching ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/129 "2005-05-24T18:08:25Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > You’re not a nonbeliever, you’re just pissed off at God. Just like in the movies. Well, in the movies, whenever someone is pissed off at God, God does something really miraculous for the person, to make amends for whatever pissed them off in the first place. So yeah, I’m pissed. REALLY pissed. And the only thing that could possibly make me feel better and start believing again is winning the lottery. Right now. Without having purchased a ticket. I mean, really, it’d be a win-win situation for The Big Man–think of the tithes I could contribute . . . 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/130 "2005-05-24T18:15:36Z")
> [@auntie em](#): > > Well, in the movies, whenever someone is pissed off at God, God does something really miraculous for the person, to make amends for whatever pissed them off in the first place. > > So yeah, I’m pissed. REALLY pissed. And the only thing that could possibly make me feel better and start believing again is winning the lottery. > > Right now. > > Without having purchased a ticket. > > I mean, really, it’d be a win-win situation for The Big Man–think of the tithes I could contribute . . . > > 😉 Ooh ooh ooh! Mine involves Goran Visnjic (from E.R.) coming in here and violating certain versus of Romans with me. I’m gonna remain an unbeliever till that happens. So howsaboutit, God? ---
**Author:** ![La\_Llorona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@La\_Llorona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/La_Llorona)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/131 "2005-05-24T18:18:11Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > The reason we can is that the actual bible states that god causes bad things to happen. I was just thinking this…I haven’t read any part of the Bible in ages, but aren’t there some places where God does things that are decidedly not cricket? He put poor Job through some really nasty suffering for what seems to be no better reason than to test his faith…same with that fellow–was it Abraham?–who He asked to sacrifice his son, but then when he was just about to, said, “Ha! Just joshin’ you, buddy,” and went on to commend him for his faith. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah wasn’t exactly a picnic for anyone involved, and correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t God cause the Great Flood, thereby wiping out all of humanity except for Noah + family, just because he was somewhat irked and felt they were undeserving sinners? (And to take a Christian view of things…aren’t we _all_ undeserving sinners? What, then, is to keep God from smiting us, Sodom-and-Gomorrah style, if He dislikes our particular brand of sin?) > [@Merijeek](#): > > Two possiblitiies: > > 1. Omniscient Omnipotent God. Allows bad things to happen. Sat back and said, “Meh” while girl was raped, beaten, and dumped. Decided to get off his ass later and “miracle” a rescue. Could have stopped it from happening in the first place but didn’t. > > 2. Non-Omniscient non-Omnipotent God. Doesn’t influence anything whatsoever. Girl is raped, beaten, and dumped due to BadGuy’s free will. Girl rescued due to dilligent work by Police Officer and his free will. I have actually met some folks (and this horrifies me just a little, I must admit) who believe a variation of “God works in mysterious ways”–that God actively causes evil, but for some good end that humanity is unable to comprehend at the moment. Examples (which were actually given to me by these people, and which I am not making up off the top of my head): “God caused the Holocaust to band the Jewish community closer together.” “God caused the events of September 11th in order to make America more religious.” “God caused the tsunami to make people in wealthy countries more charitable.” But as for the rest of this thread…non-religious folks, do you like it when religious people proselytize to you? Probably not. Religious people, do _you_ like it when someone non-religious ridicules your beliefs? Probably not. Is there any way to avoid these problems, short of keeping our mouths shut about other people’s beliefs? Probably not. And yes, I do know I’m going to regret getting involved in this thread…oh, well. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/132 "2005-05-24T18:18:53Z")
Gotta say I admire Lib for having the courage to come into these threads. He must know he is going to get jumped on. I personally dont think God had anything to do with the rescue or the crime. Choices we make are ours, and ours alone. I think God points to the right path, he doesnt put our feet upon it however. I also think starting a pit thread because an eight year old girl after being raped and beaten wanted to thank God she survived is stupid in its own right. And Hunter Hawk it is morons like you that make being Christian harder than it needs to be. There is a subtle difference between a gentle mocking, and outright dickness. You should learn it. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/133 "2005-05-24T18:21:28Z")
And in the toot my own horn section…woot, 500th post! ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/134 "2005-05-24T18:38:17Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > And Hunter Hawk it is morons like you that make being Christian harder than it needs to be. There is a subtle difference between a gentle mocking, and outright dickness. You should learn it. No, that was a joke. If that shook your Christian faith, it says nothing about **Hunter Hawk**. If that was enough to make it hard for you to be Christian, you’ve got a tough path in the world. Not that it’s someone else’s responsibility to avoid tempting you off your religious path - after all, doesn’t the Bible say the whole world is set against you if you are a Christian? A little joke in the Pit is the least of your worries, son. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/135 "2005-05-24T18:42:31Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > If he is infallibly good, then why does he allow bad things to happen to innocents? Why did he allow evil at all? Why are you assuming that the actions of an all-knowing, infinitely intelligent God are going to make sense to you? Isn’t it possible that He has information that you don’t? And why would you expect an 8-year-old to understand the problem of pain when it’s been discussed, debated, and argued about by theologians for centuries? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/136 "2005-05-24T18:59:14Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Why are you assuming that the actions of an all-knowing, infinitely intelligent God are going to make sense to you? Isn’t it possible that He has information that you don’t? > > And why would you expect an 8-year-old to understand the problem of pain when it’s been discussed, debated, and argued about by theologians for centuries? Since God’s also omniscient, he oughta have ways of accomplishing his goals that don’t involve raping 8-year-olds. I’m just sayin’, is all . . . ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/137 "2005-05-24T19:08:56Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Why are you assuming that the actions of an all-knowing, infinitely intelligent God are going to make sense to you? Isn’t it possible that He has information that you don’t? > > And why would you expect an 8-year-old to understand the problem of pain when it’s been discussed, debated, and argued about by theologians for centuries? Possible, yes. OTOH, my lack of this information is also God’s fault. Moreover, this fault is correctable. Claiming such information simply pushes the arugment down a level; it doesn’t solve anything. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/138 "2005-05-24T19:09:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Okay. But since God created all things, without God, a choice of evil would not exist either. There is simply no logical way to have God be the sole source of everything in existence without making Him equally responsible for evil and for good. I didn’t say that He’s the sole source of everything in existence. I said that He’s the source of goodness. He is the agent Who facilitates goodness — i.e., He is love. Evil is merely the moral decision to obstruct goodness. Evil doesn’t exist in the sense of something real, like love, but in the sense of something abstract, like the number 2. > [@](#): > > Then I guess I didn’t understand your explanation. The “seamstress” and “maid” analogies seem flawed to me, because they rely on metaphorically diminishing God’s capacity to prevent human evil, which contradicts the doctrine of God’s omnipotence. Every analogy is flawed in some sense, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Now, if you’re actually **not** arguing for God’s omnipotence, then I totally see where you’re coming from. IMHO a very rational case could be made for a Deity who is omnibenevolent but not omnipotent: basically, one who is always trying to promote good and eradicate evil, and sometimes succeeds but sometimes fails. In that case, we can argue that thanking God for good things is appropriate because it shows appreciation for His efforts on our behalf, but it’s mean to criticize Him for His failure to prevent some bad things, because He’s doing the best He can. We can also argue that God is all powerful _but has chosen to restrain His own powers in matters of moral choice_. That’s what free will is all about, as I see it: freedom to make moral decisions. An all-powerful being, surely, has the power of perfect self-restraint. Jesus teaches that neither He nor the Father judge anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/139 "2005-05-24T19:15:46Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > Gotta say I admire Lib for having the courage to come into these threads. He must know he is going to get jumped on. Unfortunately, it might be the case that I’m rather naive. It always surprises me when I express my opinion, only to be met by a barrage (usually from the same sources time after time) of amazingly intense opposition. I have never understood why I am singled out for this. Lots of people come into threads like these (you, for instance), and state their opinions and do not endure a deluge of righteous indignation. I, on the other hand, can hardly state my opinions — opinions that, on the whole are well known — without being told how stupid, condescending, nitpicking, hijacking, stubborn, hypocritical, and monstrous I am. If nothing else, I’m coming to mind it less and less. Eventually, you get used to the weight of the balls and chains. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237/140 "2005-05-24T19:16:20Z")
> [@](#): > > No, that was a joke. I know it was a joke, but being a joke doesnt make him less a dick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallacies-get-imprinted-young/305237.md?page=8)