# Fallouja: "Rebels?" Is there a bias in using the term "Rebels"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698 "2004-11-14T13:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/1 "2004-11-14T13:50:58Z")
The “Rebels” in Fallouja keep popping up in the news. Without regard to which side in this conflict is the side of the “Good Guys” and which is the side of the “Bad Guys”, is it strictly accurate to call them rebels? I generally think of a rebel group as a group trying to overthrow their own government via revolution. These guys, for good or bad, are battling foreign invaders. Sure, one could argue that they are “rebelling” against the current Iraqi Government, but that government was put in place by and is collaborating with the invading power. Either way, their efforts are certainly focused on the invaders. Should we really be calling them rebels? Anyone have a more accurate term to suggest? ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/2 "2004-11-14T15:28:56Z")
If we were on their side they’d be “freedom fighters” or “the resistance.” ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/3 "2004-11-14T15:32:10Z")
Your side: Freedom fighters, revolutionaries Neutral: Insurgents, rebels Other side: Terrorists, rebels I think rebels can be used from both neutral and hostile positions. Many people admire a rebel. I think you need to speak in very specific terms, in Iraq’s case, about who is an “insurgent” and who is a “terrorist” - both groups exist, and they may be fighting the same enemy, but they aren’t the same groups. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/4 "2004-11-14T16:13:24Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > The “Rebels” in Fallouja keep popping up in the news. > > Without regard to which side in this conflict is the side of the “Good Guys” and which is the side of the “Bad Guys”, is it strictly accurate to call them rebels? > > I generally think of a rebel group as a group trying to overthrow their own government via revolution. These guys, for good or bad, are battling foreign invaders. > > Sure, one could argue that they are “rebelling” against the current Iraqi Government, but that government was put in place by and is collaborating with the invading power. Either way, their efforts are certainly focused on the invaders. > > Should we really be calling them rebels? > > Anyone have a more accurate term to suggest? Yeah, Terrorists. Because thats what they’ve done mostly, tried successfully to instill fear into the iraqi populace. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/5 "2004-11-14T16:16:52Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah, Terrorists. > > Because thats what they’ve done mostly, tried successfully to instill fear into the iraqi populace. From most first hand sources I’ve read, that applies to Americans, too. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/6 "2004-11-14T16:19:03Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah, Terrorists. > > Because thats what they’ve done mostly, tried successfully to instill fear into the iraqi populace. I agree. The ongoing bobmbing raids have indeed instilled fear and outrage in the Iraqi populace. No wonder they are fighting so hard to rid themselves of the invaders. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/7 "2004-11-14T16:19:09Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > From most first hand sources I’ve read, that applies to Americans, too. No, that’s a total misunderstanding. Operation ‘Shock and Awe’ was intended to instill a feeling of warm security in the Iraqi population. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/8 "2004-11-14T16:19:51Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > From most first hand sources I’ve read, that applies to Americans, too. They don’t do it intentionally, you know when the terrorists attack you, and can blend into a population with ease, it kinda distorts your view. What first hand sources would they be? Pissed Iraqis who’ve just seen someone blown up in a car bomb? Or the Daily Worker. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/9 "2004-11-14T16:21:51Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > No, that’s a total misunderstanding. Operation ‘Shock and Awe’ was intended to instill a feeling of warm security in the Iraqi population. Yes, because we always go to war firing staplers don’t we? :rolleyes: Gimmie a break, its war, and now we have to take care of the occupied population, which fair enough, we’re not doing effectively. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/10 "2004-11-14T16:25:28Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yes, because we always go to war firing staplers don’t we? :rolleyes: Gimmie a break, its war, and now we have to take care of the occupied population, which fair enough, we’re not doing effectively. Yep. You’re certainly not killing them fast enough. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/11 "2004-11-14T16:27:49Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yes, because we always go to war firing staplers don’t we? :rolleyes: Gimmie a break, its war, and now we have to take care of the occupied population, which fair enough, we’re not doing effectively. But being suprised that a population might resent an invading force bombing the place to shit and killing tens of thousands, and labelling anyone who resists as a terrorist would be a better way to go? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/12 "2004-11-14T16:57:47Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > But being suprised that a population might resent an invading force bombing the place to shit and killing tens of thousands, and labelling anyone who resists as a terrorist would be a better way to go? Haha, yes because before that, the majority of Fallujans just wanted to be living in peace, with portions of the population not even wanting to attack the interim government or other areas of Iraq did they? When did the US army ever think that they would be recieved as liberators? They knew the situation and what the local populace expected of them. But we still had to sort the situation out, it was a last resort to destory a militant redoubt. You can’t make peace with these militant assholes, the disenfranchised theres a possibility, but when another city gets taken over by the radical religious freaks, are you going to express yet more sympathy for them? How many dead will it take, how many carbombs, beheadings, burnt bodies, will it take to realise they will stop at nothing to get what they want, which is power and domination over more peoples lives. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/13 "2004-11-14T16:59:30Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Yep. You’re certainly not killing them fast enough. Tell me Red Fury, short of not letting ourselves give in to a new government which practises on a level on par with the Taliban in Iraq, do you have a better idea? I’d love to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/14 "2004-11-14T17:04:46Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Your side: Freedom fighters, revolutionaries > > Neutral: Insurgents, rebels > > Other side: Terrorists, rebels > > I think rebels can be used from both neutral and hostile positions. Many people admire a rebel. > > I think you need to speak in very specific terms, in Iraq’s case, about who is an “insurgent” and who is a “terrorist” - both groups exist, and they may be fighting the same enemy, but they aren’t the same groups. I’ll tell you who the freedom fighters are The Iraqi Interim government with Allied backing. The Terrorists are the hardcore Islamists with Feyadeen and Republican Guard elements. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/15 "2004-11-14T17:07:15Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’ll tell you who the freedom fighters are > > The Iraqi Interim government with Allied backing. > > The Terrorists are the hardcore Islamists with Feyadeen and Republican Guard elements. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/16 "2004-11-14T17:09:16Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Haha, yes because before that, the majority of Fallujans just wanted to be living in peace, with portions of the population not even wanting to attack the interim government or other areas of Iraq did they? I wasn’t talking about Fallujah specifically, but yes I’m sure they did. I’m not sure what your point is here or even if you believe they did or they didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/17 "2004-11-14T17:47:33Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You can’t make peace with these militant assholes, the disenfranchised theres a possibility, but when another city gets taken over by the radical religious freaks, are you going to express yet more sympathy for them? How many dead will it take, how many carbombs, beheadings, burnt bodies, will it take to realise they will stop at nothing to get what they want, which is power and domination over more peoples lives. By all means, don’t let [**the facts**](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217874/site/newsweek/) get in the way of your delusions. > [@](#): > > **The first survey of Iraqis sponsored by the U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority after the Abu Ghraib prison scandal shows that most say they would feel safer if Coalition forces left immediately, without even waiting for elections scheduled for next year. An overwhelming majority, about 80 percent, also say they have “no confidence” in either the U.S. civilian authorities or Coalition forces.** So, for the most part, what Iraqis want, is for Amercans to _leave_. Which is the unifying aspect of the resistance – be they ex-Baathist, fundamentalist, or simply citizens who’ve taken up arms to avenge the lost of a love one. And increasing number that last one I regret to say. But go ahead, keep lumping them all together as “militant assholes” if it makes you feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/18 "2004-11-14T18:41:43Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > By all means, don’t let [**the facts**](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217874/site/newsweek/) get in the way of your delusions. > > So, for the most part, what Iraqis want, is for Amercans to _leave_. Which is the unifying aspect of the resistance – be they ex-Baathist, fundamentalist, or simply citizens who’ve taken up arms to avenge the lost of a love one. And increasing number that last one I regret to say. > > But go ahead, keep lumping them all together as “militant assholes” if it makes you feel better. They are militant assholes. Did you know, Redfury, that not all the killed in Iraq is not the result of American firepower _shock!_ but of insrugents blowing up town centres, schools, places of work and residence, did you know that? Do you know what we’re up against there? Anyways, tell me, have you got any better ideas, which wouldn’t culminate in a new Islamic theocracy or Taliban-esque government? We have to help them, its our duty, contrary to what you think, the Iraqis don’t want us to leave until we’ve helped them create a stable functioning state. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, leaving Iraq before its ready to fend for itself is a crime, unless you actually advocate Genocide? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/19 "2004-11-14T18:45:35Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > I wasn’t talking about Fallujah specifically, but yes I’m sure they did. I’m not sure what your point is here or even if you believe they did or they didn’t? They did, you only have to have it confirmed with you know, the terrorist safehouses being found and the release of some Iraqi hostages who were beaten and tortured to have that proven. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698/20 "2004-11-14T18:52:53Z")
The best way to answer this is to look at the statistics (which I don’t have!) How many Iraqis have volunteered to join the new Iraqi army–and support the new Iraqi qovernment, and try to restore order to their country, helping make it a democracy? And How many Iraqis are doing the opposite–beheading civilians, destroying pipelines,trying to bring misery to their fellow countrymen by blowing up anything they can, etc.–? Its late at night (after my bedtime), and a very cursory web search didnt give me the statistics., but I’m pretty sure that there are many, many more Iraqis in uniform than “Rebels” , “freedom fighters” or terrorists. There are weapons all over the place in Iraq–every family has an AK47.It seems that the majority of the young Iraqi men choose to join the organized Iraqi army and fight with the Americans.They could just as easily take their gun to the local mosque and join the rebels. But it seems that the rebels in Faluja are a very small percentage of the population (and many of them aren’t even Iraqis) They do not seem to have much support from the general popluation. By that definition, the thugs in Faluja are rebels, who do not represent the majority of their people. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallouja-rebels-is-there-a-bias-in-using-the-term-rebels/274698.md?page=2)