# Fallout from higher minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182 "2015-07-25T20:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/181 "2015-08-16T16:16:38Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Or could we pass a law that says the buyer must pay $200 for only $11 worth of beef, on the grounds that the butcher has had a tough year? And if the buyer were to decline to make such a transaction, he be fined by the federal government? > > Apparently, yes, you can do that with healthcare, albeit for a different motivation. In this country, it’s perfectly fine, they tell me, to force someone to buy something at bad prices, whether that’s healthcare coverage or employee labor. You know who said it is fine? The Supreme Court. So, it is the American Way. Got a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/182 "2015-08-16T17:27:15Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Working 70 hours a week is ridiculous. That doesn’t allow for any quality of life of at all. Hardly ridiculous. I recommend everyone try it. I had plenty of time for entertainment. Of course, ~half of MW earners work under 35 hours. Some of that is due to scheduling practices, buy I don’t know how to quantify that. > [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > And not everyone working for minimum wage is a healthy young person anyway. You are absolutely correct. I previously stated I’m in favor of aid programs. Most MW earners are not poor. Most are young, even if not as young as in past years. I fully support assisting the MW earners who cannot work more and who are poor. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/183 "2015-08-16T17:31:47Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I fully support assisting the MW earners who cannot work more and who are poor. Of course you do; you are a business owner with employees. What business owner wouldn’t want the government to subsidize his low wages? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/184 "2015-08-16T17:42:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You know who said it is fine? The Supreme Court. So, it is the American Way. Got a problem with that? The Supreme Court also ruled against campaign finance reform in Citizens United. Got a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/185 "2015-08-16T17:55:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Of course you do; you are a business owner with employees. What business owner wouldn’t want the government to subsidize his low wages? I have no minimum wage employees. If I did, any government aid to workers would not increase my profitability. Thus there is no subsidy. I’m happy to pay for that aid with taxes on my income. If the goal is to help the people who need help, which is not the set of people making MW, then let’s help the people who need help. Only if you care about poor people, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/186 "2015-08-16T18:01:47Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The Supreme Court also ruled against campaign finance reform in Citizens United. Got a problem with that? Moving on from minimum wage to campaign funding? I can certainly understand why. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/187 "2015-08-16T18:03:25Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I have no minimum wage employees. Have any making less than $15 an hour? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/188 "2015-08-16T18:12:50Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Moving on from minimum wage to campaign funding? I can certainly understand why. I can certainly understand why you only trot out the Supreme Court argument when it goes your way, and rage when it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/189 "2015-08-16T18:21:32Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Have any making less than $15 an hour? Zero ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/190 "2015-08-16T18:34:04Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Hardly ridiculous. I recommend everyone try it. I had plenty of time for entertainment. Of course, ~half of MW earners work under 35 hours. Some of that is due to scheduling practices, buy I don’t know how to quantify that.You are absolutely correct. I previously stated I’m in favor of aid programs. Most MW earners are not poor. Most are young, even if not as young as in past years. I fully support assisting the MW earners who cannot work more and who are poor. Well, finding time for entertainment is certainly not my only consideration. I have a house to keep clean, laundry that never seems to end, yard work to do, grocery shopping to do, cooking for myself. Then I need time to eat, sleep and bath. Just to name a few things that need doing every day. Also, what on earth would happen to our unemployment rate if 70 hours was the norm. Personally, I’m fine with helping poor people through taxes instead, but if I understand things correctly, the folks against a livable wage are also against any changes to our tax structure. They are against pretty much any social safety network at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/191 "2015-08-16T18:38:48Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Personally, I’m fine with helping poor people through taxes instead, but if I understand things correctly, the folks against a livable wage are also against any changes to our tax structure. They are against pretty much any social safety network at all. We can cite this thread for that. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/192 "2015-08-16T18:48:51Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Well, finding time for entertainment is certainly not my only consideration. I have a house to keep clean, laundry that never seems to end, yard work to do, grocery shopping to do, cooking for myself. Then I need time to eat, sleep and bath. Just to name a few things that need doing every day. > > Also, what on earth would happen to our unemployment rate if 70 hours was the norm. > > Personally, I’m fine with helping poor people through taxes instead, but if I understand things correctly, the folks against a livable wage are also against any changes to our tax structure. They are against pretty much any social safety network at all. You mention yard work. What if another employee lived in an apartment where he didn’t need to do yard work? Why does your need to do yard work come into the calculus of your wage in an employment contract? Who says 40 hours per week is the sweet spot? Who not 35, 30, 55, or 60? What does your personal situation have to do with the (hypothetical) me offering you an employment contract? Why is it different that the offer to buy food from a grocer? I need $X worth of food, but only have $Y in my pocket. Why can’t we force the grocer to provide $X worth of food? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/193 "2015-08-16T19:01:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > One of the rules of this forum is that posters will refrain from accusing other posters of lying. If you do that, again, (particularly when you are simply having a semantic dispute), you will receive a Warning for misbehavior. But I didn’t accuse him of lying. I said he posted false information. I just re-read the note at the top of this board. > [@](#): > > Questioning or disputing the accuracy of another poster’s statements–“I don’t think that’s right”, “That’s incorrect”, “You are mistaken”, or even “That’s not true”-- is what Great Debates is all about. Is that no longer the case? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/194 "2015-08-16T19:13:12Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What about a doctor’s wife who wants to work to supplement the family’s income or simply because she wants something to do during the day. Why should her wage be based upon some calculation of minimal needs in the community? > > Why is a phone considered something necessary for survival? A basic phone or a smart phone? Land line or cell phone? What other basic utilities? Cable television? High speed internet? IOW, what is considered “basic” and who decides these things? well i certainly hope you are not the one deciding ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/195 "2015-08-16T19:20:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Why? The majority of people are able to provide through their labor or investments a means to earn enough money to pay for their own healthcare, childcare, food, etc. Why should we institute a government program for everyone to provide these things when most people are able to provide for themselves? compassion ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/196 "2015-08-16T19:28:41Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Seattle was the first major city to experiment with a vastly-higher minimum wage, earlier this year. The results are starting to become apparent, and are rather interesting. I daresay, however, that they will be surprising only to liberals. > [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/22/seattle-sees-fallout-from-15-minimum-wage-as-other-cities-follow-suit/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/22/seattle-sees-fallout-from-15-minimum-wage-as-other-cities-follow-suit/) > > Economists and conservatives keep telling liberals that labor is not immune to economic laws–and the liberals keep insisting that they know better. I am a liberal. Raising the minimum wage is a popular idea among liberals - and there’s nothing particularly terrible about it. The idea is that if you’re working, you should be making enough to live on. But the best way to raise wages for low-paid workers is full-employment. The job marketplace is like any other market. It is controlled by the law of supply and demand. Changing the unemployment rate - specifically: reducing it - changes the dynamic of the job market, so that it is employers competing for workers, rather than workers competing for employment. When employers are competing for workers, they must pay more, and offer better benefits: that happens regardless of minimum wage rules. It - full employment - has the additional benefit of making everyone in the country richer: because our national wealth is a function of the number of people working and the amount of work they do. Full employment is what liberals _should_ be pushing for; not raising minimum wages. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/197 "2015-08-16T19:34:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > All of this discussion simply focuses on what the wage earner “needs” and doesn’t address whether that wage earner is giving the equivalent value to his employer. > > The underlying assumption seems to be fuck the employer, he is a greedy rich bastard smoking Cuban cigars at 35,000 feet in his private jet airplane while watching the hookers he hired fight over who gets the mountain of cocaine piled in the middle of the 100 year old bottles of scotch. > > And even assuming that the business owner is that rich, I don’t see any reason why he takes upon the status of providing a certain lifestyle to his employee. If a person does not have the skills to earn a wage that provides his basic sustenance, then that fact existed before and will continue after his employment contract ends. This is no fault of the employer, and if society is going to decide that we need programs to help this individual ( and we should) then society should bear the costs. > > Further, the overwhelming majority of business owners are not rich. Many are bordering on the brink of bankruptcy. Many are bargaining with an employee from less or equal strength. > > Since becoming a small business owner two years ago, it amazes me that businesses still survive with the level of taxation placed upon them. The default assumption seems to be that we are earning this lavish living and need to pay, pay, and pay. But we are not only taxed upon our personal income, we are taxed for simply existing. The city where I have my business imposed a B&O tax on my gross receipts. For every employee’s wages, I pay additional social security tax, medicare tax, unemployment tax, workers compensation tax. Tax, tax, tax. > > In the context of this debate, the assumption is that I owe my workers a certain “living” wage. I reject that contention. I owe my workers the value of their services that they provide to me and nothing more. If they cannot command a living wage through their skills then their poverty is not a “peculiar” interest of mine as it exists before they worked for me. But your employee’s offer you more than the “value of their service”. Can you run the business by yourself? What if none of your employee’s came to work? How long would your business last then? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/198 "2015-08-16T19:52:22Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But your employee’s offer you more than the “value of their service”. Can you run the business by yourself? What if none of your employee’s came to work? How long would your business last then? If they didn’t come to work and I couldn’t find a replacement, then I would have to pay them more. Free Market et al. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/199 "2015-08-16T19:54:33Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If they didn’t come to work and I couldn’t find a replacement, then I would have to pay them more. Free Market et al. You are not going to impress me by parroting the words free market and the market demands. That is just what people say when they want to say something callous and not look like they are greedy or selfish. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/200 "2015-08-16T20:00:34Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Full employment is what liberals _should_ be pushing for; not raising minimum wages. I don’t see why one should preclude the other, or why I can’t support both. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=11)