# Fallout from higher minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182 "2015-07-25T20:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/261 "2015-08-18T19:08:14Z")
> [@pbbth](#): > > You’ve already done all of these things to maximize profit. No other way for you to make so much as one thin dime of additional money? Then you have nowhere to go as a business but down as inflation eats up your profit and you will go out of business. So we might as well raise the MW and put all those workers out of their jobs now. Is that the idea? > [@](#): > > This sort of thing reads like blackmail. “Let me pay my workers the lowest possible amount even if it isn’t a livable wage or I’ll take my ball and go elsewhere!” If you like to put it that way, yes. If the government makes it impossible for me to turn a profit, then I have to do something. If I relocate overseas, then at least the workers off-shore get jobs. If I just shut down, nobody works, and nobody gets widgets either. > [@](#): > > And as other companies are finding moving all the jobs overseas now means huge swaths of the country don’t have enough money to buy widgets the way they used to… That’s a pity, but it’s not my problem. If I can’t turn a profit making widgets, I don’t see how the government is going to force me to do so. Slavery is dead, you know. > [@](#): > > [A quick google search](http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=companies+bringing+back+jobs+from+overseas&FORM=HDRSC6) will show you that there are lots of companies bringing jobs back from overseas because they’ve found that the quality of work is lower, the customers making use of the services are unsatisfied, etc. Is that why China is the world’s largest manufacturer? > [@](#): > > I don’t have any numbers handy… Imagine my suprise. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/262 "2015-08-18T19:16:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So we might as well raise the MW and put all those workers out of their jobs now. Is that the idea?.. > > Regards, > Shodan Shodan, in regards to post 241 [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18610646&postcount=241](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18610646&postcount=241) Is your cite claiming: 1- We are 100% certain that the other article is 100% wrong in their analysis and we have the facts to prove it 100%, we can prove that they are wrong with 100% certainty 2- We find the results of the article to be in question and here are the data that support our criticism ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/263 "2015-08-18T19:28:37Z")
**Robert163** , I posted excerpts. I am not going to read the whole thing to you. If you want to debate, you have to put forth at least a little effort or it isn’t worthwhile. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/264 "2015-08-18T20:30:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Robert163** , I posted excerpts. I am not going to read the whole thing to you. > > If you want to debate, you have to put forth at least a little effort or it isn’t worthwhile. > > Regards, > Shodan Ok, sure, fine… whatever, I don’t think I should be required to understand the specific meaning of terms like “linear elasticity” just to have a conversation with you. I know what linear means, I know what elastic means, I don’t know specifically what they mean in this regard, nor do know what Ed \> 0 entails nor do I know what QCEW data means. Those are all actually terms used by other posters, not from your cite, I am just saying that I don’t know, nor claim to really really know about economics. That does not make me lazy or stupid, just honest. As to your cite, the best I can tell is that it calls the initial article into question, it does not prove the article is wrong. Saying that the original article did not account for various factors, saying that we argue XYZ1234 contrary to position XYZ6789, saying that ABC1234 is probably a factor, David Nuemark Believes, so and so is generally considered… etc… none of that actually disproves the inertial claims of the article I posted. In fact, the only point to directly refute the article then clarifys itself back to my position: The last three federal minimum wage increases (2007, 2008 and 2009) were followed by significant job losses, \*\* but that was all taking place amidst the global financial crisis\*\* ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/265 "2015-08-18T20:46:21Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > That does not make me lazy or stupid, just honest. False trichotomy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/266 "2015-08-19T02:36:50Z")
[Thing Explainer: Complicated Stuff in Simple Words](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0544668251) by Randall Munroe (of XKCD fame) Perhaps now that he’s finished writing about [Up Goers](http://xkcd.com/1133/), he can write an econ book. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/267 "2015-08-19T23:35:24Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You don’t know how I feel or see. Again, please stop assigning motives to me. > > Malnutrition doesn’t equal starvation, btw. Then you should probably work on your communications skills since I get the exact same thoughts about how you feel as **running coach** does. I agree that malnutrition doesn’t equal starvation. In this discussion it is far worse. This is what we know about malnutrition. > [@](#): > > The findings from several authors confirm that undernutrition at an early age affects brain growth and intellectual quotient. Most part of students with the lowest scholastic achievement scores present suboptimal head circumference (anthropometric indicator of past nutrition and brain development) and brain size. On the other hand, intellectual quotient measured through intelligence tests (Weschler-R, or the Raven Progressives Matrices Test) has been described positively and significantly correlated with brain size measured by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI); in this respect, intellectual ability has been recognized as one of the best predictors of scholastic achievement. Considering that education is the change lever for the improvement of the quality of life and that the absolute numbers of undernourished children have been increasing in the world, is of major relevance to analyse the long-term effects of undernutrition at an early age. The investigations related to the interrelationships between nutritional status, brain development, intelligence and scholastic achievement are of greatest importance, since nutritional problems affect the lowest socioeconomic stratum with negative consequences manifested in school-age, in higher levels of school dropout, learning problems and a low percentage of students enrolling into higher education. This limits the development of people by which a clear economic benefit to increase adult productivity for government policies might be successful preventing childhood malnutrition. > **[\[The impact of malnutrition on brain development, intelligence and school...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11515234/)** > > The findings from several authors confirm that undernutrition at an early age affects brain growth and intellectual quotient. Most part of students with the lowest scholastic achievement scores present suboptimal head circumference (anthropometric... So, we have people who do not have the skills to get out of poverty raising children who will be undernourished and well, because of this will not be able to perform educationally at a level that will give them the skills to get out of poverty ad infinitim and many are fine with this. This is insanity to me. We know as a society that we are dooming these families to this and yeah, I don’t know how people who support this “feel” about the issue but I know actions speak louder than words and I know what those actions are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/268 "2015-08-19T23:45:10Z")
More about undernourishment. Again, this is not exclusively a poverty issue it is a major poverty issue. > [@](#): > > About 85% of Americans do not consume the US Food and Drug Administration’s recommended daily intakes of the most important vitamins and minerals necessary for proper physical and mental development. > > More than half of American children do not get enough of vitamins D and E, while more than a quarter do not get enough calcium, magnesium or vitamin A, according to a recent Journal of Nutrition study. This can result in a compromised immune system, stunted physical growth, reduced mental ability, chronic disease and even death. > **[Hidden hunger: America’s growing malnutrition epidemic](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/feb/10/nutrition-hunger-food-children-vitamins-us)** > > Even in the wealthiest countries, people aren’t getting enough nutrients, write Barbara Bush, daughter of former US president George W Bush, and DSM North America president Hugh Welsh This is our future folks. Feed your children well folks. Ever wonder why our entrepreneurs tend to come from money? I would love to know their nutrition levels as kids. I’m betting they ate reasonably well; they had the opportunity to. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/269 "2015-08-20T00:25:02Z")
Why, that could almost be part of the mechanism behind generational poverty! Crazy talk! ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/270 "2015-08-20T12:45:15Z")
Here’s yet another good reason not to work 70 hour weeks. Working long hours can put one at higher risk for stroke and heart disease: > **[Working long hours could be bad for your heart](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/working-long-hours-higher-risk-of-stroke-heart-disease/)** > > New study finds people who spend long days at the office face greater risk of stroke, heart disease 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/271 "2015-08-20T13:08:14Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Here’s yet another good reason not to work 70 hour weeks. > > Working long hours can put one at higher risk for stroke and heart disease: > [Working long hours could be bad for your heart - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/working-long-hours-higher-risk-of-stroke-heart-disease/) > > 🙂 Poor people in the US have little to worry about, then. A large majority of poor households do not have a full-time, year-round worker. ([Cite](http://www.spotlightonpoverty.org/workers_and_poverty.aspx), [cite](http://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-are-poverty-rates-among-working-adults), [cite](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=18&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFwQFjAHOApqFQoTCPztzZfdt8cCFYhWPgodNfEAhA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffederalsafetynet.com%2Fus-poverty-statistics.html&ei=6NDVVfzZLYit-QG14oOgCA&usg=AFQjCNHjKLwPqaENrNxQdgwpleM6ZgqugQ&bvm=bv.99804247,d.cWw)). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/272 "2015-08-22T00:15:20Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Ever wonder why our entrepreneurs tend to come from money? I would love to know their nutrition levels as kids. I’m betting they ate reasonably well; they had the opportunity to. I always assumed it was because the consequences of failure are so high in the US, unless you come from money. Most people I know that start businesses (and my job means that is a fairly reasonable number) are in their late thirties or forties and have come as far as they feel they can working for other people. That also happens to be the age where you start to feel the first frost in your bones, have a family and need to start thinking about college for the kids. I always though Scandinavia had so much higher rates of business start-ups and social mobility because those things are non-related issues here. Note that the one area where the US does well in startups is IT -traditionally the domain of the young (and in their minds, immortal) ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/273 "2015-08-22T06:13:47Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I always assumed it was because the consequences of failure are so high in the US, unless you come from money. > > Most people I know that start businesses (and my job means that is a fairly reasonable number) are in their late thirties or forties and have come as far as they feel they can working for other people. That also happens to be the age where you start to feel the first frost in your bones, have a family and need to start thinking about college for the kids. I always though Scandinavia had so much higher rates of business start-ups and social mobility because those things are non-related issues here. > > Note that the one area where the US does well in startups is IT -traditionally the domain of the young (and in their minds, immortal) I think this is true but it’s a different discussion. Even the IT startups are young people who grew up out of poverty. I’m sure there are some but I can’t think of any giants that started poor. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the facebook dude, all of them grew up comfortable. I think there are enough gamblers among the young especially poor ones that we’d expect to have some go to examples if malnutrition didn’t matter but I’m kinda at a loss to find them. Being hungry may well make you work a bit harder but it doesn’t make you work better or smarter it doesn’t seem. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/274 "2015-08-22T06:33:02Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the facebook dude, all of them grew up comfortable. Zuckerberg’s parents were well off. Bill Gates’s parents were rich. Steve Jobs’s adoptive parents were blue collar. Max Levchin (Paypal founder) and Sergey Brin are immigrants whose families came to the US with basically nothing. So - not all were “comfortable”. Few were desperately poor, that’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/275 "2015-08-22T09:12:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Zuckerberg’s parents were well off. Bill Gates’s parents were rich. Steve Jobs’s adoptive parents were blue collar. Max Levchin (Paypal founder) and Sergey Brin are immigrants whose families came to the US with basically nothing. So - not all were “comfortable”. Few were desperately poor, that’s true. Brin’s family was not hurting. His father is a mathematics professor at the University of Maryland, and his mother a researcher at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center. For this discussion I was using comfortable as having the means to provide proper nutrition to their offspring. I would say blue collar would fit. I’ll concede that comfortable would vary wildly between individuals so I’m fine with using the term not deperately poor. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/276 "2015-08-25T03:32:54Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > A newer article from three days ago reports that Seattle restaurants are shedding jobs: > > [http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/10/report-seattle-restaurants-suffer-worse-job-loss-since-the-great-recession/](http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/10/report-seattle-restaurants-suffer-worse-job-loss-since-the-great-recession/) The BLS has 131,200 for January and 137,000 for June 2015 for the area. Doesn’t seem like a bad loss to me. In fact, 137,000 is the highest month in history. July is expected, but not yet validated, to eclipse that record. AEI seems to be pulling seasonally adjusted numbers which don’t appear to even be available from BLS. I don’t know what sort of formula the St. Louis Fed (their secondary source) is applying to account for seasonality, but it’s not in the BLS data as far as I can tell. While they have an option for adjusting for seasonality, that is only at a very high grain (i.e. Total Non-Farm Labor). If the St. Louis Fed author is applying that to an individual industry, they’re doing it wrong. Did AEI choose this source instead of straight from the horse’s mouth, simply because it gave them what they were looking for? Hell, I’ll even give instructions for how to get the actual data, so you don’t have to rely on my word. Go to: [http://www.bls.gov/data/#employment](http://www.bls.gov/data/#employment) Under the “Employment” category, “Monthly” sub category, “Employment, Hours, and Earnings - State and Metro Area” sub sub category, click on “Multi-Screen Data Search”. Select “Not Seasonally Adjusted” and click “Next form” Select “01 All Employees, in Thousands” and click “Next form” Select “53 Washington” and click “Next form” Select “42660 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA” and click “Next form” Select “70 Leisure and Hospitality” and click “Next form” Select “70722000 Food Services and Drinking Places” and click “Next form” Click “Retrieve data” and look for yourself. Note: Once you are at the link, it’s not nearly as complicated as the instructions might make it appear. You can also use the “One-Screen Data Search” although that usually has issues with various browsers. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/277 "2015-08-25T04:59:57Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > People earning 28K get benefits? Damn, the “poor” must be living better than I ever have, and 100% of their income is disposable! > > Sucks to be a responsible tax-payer saving for retirement… Why do you assume that someone who’s poor and receiving benefits isn’t a) responsible and b) paying taxes? That $28K income figure is also not for a single-person household, but one of at least three or four. If you call $28K “disposable” when you’re trying to feed, clothe and house a family of four, I’d like to know where you live. (For a single person, for SNAP the income cap is about $12k a year; Medicaid is $15.7k.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=13)