# Fallout from higher minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182 "2015-07-25T20:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/61 "2015-08-15T19:01:57Z")
Realistically we all know there will be drastic increases in the price of food at restaurants. Someday has to pay for the minimum wage almost doubling. Naturally, they’ll lay off as many people as possible. Then they pass on the costs to us, the consumer. I expect a Quarter Pounder meal deal at McDonalds easily jumping to $9. It’s about $6 now after sales tax gets added. A $12 per person restaurant meal might jump to $18. Everybody will get hurt and bad. A lot of us will just have to stop eating out. Go back to cooking at home. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/62 "2015-08-15T19:03:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Let’s say without a minimum wage increase, a state would have added 100,000 jobs. With the increase, they only add 50,000 jobs. That represents a 50,000 job reduction. How in the world do you know how many jobs _would_ have been added? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/63 "2015-08-15T19:41:25Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I expect a Quarter Pounder meal deal at McDonalds easily jumping to $9. [Not as drastic as conservatives tell you it will be](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/08/03/3687171/15-minimum-wage-big-mac/). > [@](#): > > If the minimum wage were increased to $15 an hour, prices at fast food restaurants would rise by an estimated 4.3 percent, according to a new study. That would mean a McDonald’s Big Mac, which currently goes for $3.99, would cost about 17 cents more, or $4.16. I’ll gladly pay 17¢ more for a Big Mac if it means someone else gets a living wage. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/64 "2015-08-15T20:10:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Not as drastic as conservatives tell you it will be](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/08/03/3687171/15-minimum-wage-big-mac/). > > I’ll gladly pay 17¢ more for a Big Mac if it means someone else gets a living wage. I’d gladly pay much more. I’m sure you would too. But I’m still not sure how to weigh government supplements, where needed, vs dictating labor prices. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/65 "2015-08-15T20:12:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Not as drastic as conservatives tell you it will be](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/08/03/3687171/15-minimum-wage-big-mac/). > > I’ll gladly pay 17¢ more for a Big Mac if it means someone else gets a living wage. Maybe someday people will learn how to pay attention to their own links. > [@](#): > > Other research has found that all employers could react to higher minimum wage costs in the same way — through savings from reduced turnover, higher prices, improved efficiency, and increased demand — and therefore avoid layoffs. That was written by somebody who knows absolutely nothing about economics. “Improved efficiency” is a synonym for “we don’t need to hire as many people.” In addition, higher prices due to increased labor costs will produce the opposite of “increased demand.” And in the article that your link linked to, it says, > [@](#): > > Due to current tax credits in the Affordable Care Act, there would be a minimal effect on prices at limited-service restaurants with fewer than 25 full-time employees. Those tax credits could be changed at any time. Basing permanent strategy on something that is likely to be temporary is a very bad idea. Furthermore, that study apparently did not even attempt to quantify the effect of a minimum wage increase at larger stores. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/66 "2015-08-15T20:16:55Z")
This seems like GD would be a better fit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/67 "2015-08-15T20:23:08Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > “Improved efficiency” is a synonym for “we don’t need to hire as many people.” In addition, higher prices due to increased labor costs will produce the opposite of “increased demand.” In other words, ‘and therefore avoid layoffs’, which you quoted, means more layoffs. Maybe someday people will learn how to pay attention to their own quotes. And ‘increased prices’, in the case of a Big Mac, is an extra 17¢. Big deal. If you’re buying a Big Mac, you’re not going to turn around and make your own damned burger over 17¢. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/68 "2015-08-15T20:37:05Z")
Like many of you, I used to be for a large increase in the minimum wage, but now realize that doing that is unnecessary and counter-productive. This is a case where “the market” be left to sort the better workers by paying them more than minimum. And you can’t dismiss the fact that many recent college grads and responsible, experienced people haven’t been able to find a job that pays more than 35 or 40K per year. Now you think any and every uneducated, unproven, inexperienced kid make 30K ??? Fast-food worker is an entry-level job, not a career. Yeah, it’s hard to move up into a better paying job, but that doesn’t mean the government should mandate that we all move down! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/69 "2015-08-15T20:40:02Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Yeah, it’s hard to move up into a better paying job, but that doesn’t mean the government should mandate that we all move down! How does other people making a living wage make me ‘move down’? I’m not going to get a pay cut just because a janitor is able to contribute more to the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/70 "2015-08-15T20:40:43Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Fast-food worker is an entry-level job, not a career. Any 40-hour a week job should pay enough to live on without food stamps; even entry level jobs. Why should entry level workers be reduced to couch surfing and living on ramen? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/71 "2015-08-15T20:56:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Any 40-hour a week job should pay enough to live on without food stamps; even entry level jobs. Why? ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/72 "2015-08-15T21:05:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > How does other people making a living wage make me ‘move down’? I’m not going to get a pay cut just because a janitor is able to contribute more to the economy. I’ll let you debate that with the recent college grad who just landed a 35K job. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/73 "2015-08-15T21:07:27Z")
Never mind that minimum wage is plenty to live on, and even save, if one can get enough hours. That last part is difficult due to just-in-time scheduling that we recently had a thread on. But I felt rich on those 70 hours a week. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/74 "2015-08-15T21:09:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Any 40-hour a week job should pay enough to live on without food stamps; even entry level jobs. Why should entry level workers be reduced to couch surfing and living on ramen? Even entry level? Are you joking? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/75 "2015-08-15T21:10:03Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why? Because if they don’t make enough to live on without food stamps, then they’ll be on food stamps and receive other public support/subsidies that are paid for by taxpayers. You can have people making a living wage, _or_ you can support them through taxes. Choose one. Why should companies making record profits not pay their employees a living wage? They are receiving ‘free money’ from the government. If they can’t operate without the government subsidies they get by virtue of the government picking up the slack, why should they stay in business? If they can’t compete, the Holy Church of the Free Market deems they should go under. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/76 "2015-08-15T21:26:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Because if they don’t make enough to live on without food stamps, then they’ll be on food stamps and receive other public support/subsidies that are paid for by taxpayers. You can have people making a living wage, _or_ you can support them through taxes. Choose one. Excluded middle. People can also live within their means. > [@](#): > > Why should companies making record profits not pay their employees a living wage? They are receiving ‘free money’ from the government. If they can’t operate without the government subsidies they get by virtue of the government picking up the slack, why should they stay in business? If they can’t compete, the Holy Church of the Free Market deems they should go under. You don’t seem to understand the “Free Market”. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/77 "2015-08-15T21:41:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Because if they don’t make enough to live on without food stamps, then they’ll be on food stamps and receive other public support/subsidies that are paid for by taxpayers. You can have people making a living wage, _or_ you can support them through taxes. Choose one. Not quite. A living wage, whatever that means, is different for each person. Plenty of minimum wage workers are from households with high income. They won’t be supported by taxes. If your intent is to make sure poor people have a living income, which the MW was not instituted to do, government subsidies are a much less blunt instrument. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Why should companies making record profits not pay their employees a living wage? They are receiving ‘free money’ from the government. If they can’t operate without the government subsidies they get by virtue of the government picking up the slack, why should they stay in business? If they can’t compete, the Holy Church of the Free Market deems they should go under. A government subsidy to an individual is not a subsidy to his employer just because he happens to be employed. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/78 "2015-08-15T21:42:19Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Excluded middle. People can also live within their means. Not if they don’t make enough. People need to pay rent. They need to eat. They need to get from home to work, either in a car that they have to buy gas for and insure, or by public transportation. They need to clothe themselves. They have medical expenses. Single parents have to arrange daycare – or else not work. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You don’t seem to understand the “Free Market”. You didn’t answer the question. If a company does not pay enough for a person to live on without government subsidies, they are shifting the burden to taxpayers. In other words, the taxpayers are paying part of the employees’ compensation. Thus the company is effectively receiving corporate welfare. They claim that in spite of record profits, they will go our of business if they have to pay their employees more. If that is true, then why should they stay in business? If they can’t compete without corporate welfare, they _should_ close down. And what do you think people will do with a higher minimum wage? Hide it under the mattress? No. They’ll spend it. They may spend it on rent, or they may spend it on food, or they may spend it to keep their cars that are falling apart from falling apart. They’re going to support the economy, keeping businesses in business, and paying more in taxes to help people do need government assistance. A rising tide lifts all boats. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/79 "2015-08-15T21:44:03Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > A government subsidy to an individual is not a subsidy to his employer just because he happens to be employed. Yes it is. If the employer is not paying its employees enough to live on without a subsidy, then the government is subsidising the employer. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/80 "2015-08-15T21:50:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You don’t seem to understand the “Free Market”. Name one country in the world that has a free market. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=5)