# Fallout from higher minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182 "2015-07-25T20:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/81 "2015-08-15T21:51:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Single parents have to arrange daycare – or else not work. Part of living within one’s means is not having children you cannot afford to raise. > [@](#): > > If a company does not pay enough for a person to live on without government subsidies, they are shifting the burden to taxpayers. That sad excuse for an argument might work for the Bernie Sanders voters, but not in the real world. Neither corporations nor the government owe anyone a living. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/82 "2015-08-15T21:55:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yes it is. If the employer is not paying its employees enough to live on without a subsidy, then the government is subsidising the employer. False. If the employer disappears overnight, this does not remove the taxpayer expense for the subsidy. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/83 "2015-08-15T21:55:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Name one country in the world that has a free market. Probably none, but a minimum wage wouldn’t be part of one. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/84 "2015-08-15T21:56:16Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Part of living within one’s means is not having children you cannot afford to raise. Which is a conundrum for someone who had a good job before the Bush recession, but can’t make ends meet on service economy wages. What do you suggest they do with the children they had during good times? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/85 "2015-08-15T21:57:27Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Probably none, but a minimum wage wouldn’t be part of one. So now that we agree the US isn’t a free market, why should low wage earners be held to that standard? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/86 "2015-08-15T21:57:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Part of living within one’s means is not having children you cannot afford to raise. > > That sad excuse for an argument might work for the Bernie Sanders voters, but not in the real world. > > Neither corporations nor the government owe anyone a living. Since _someone_ has to do jobs at the low end of the scale, what do you propose? Do you believe that someone with few skills should just starve? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/87 "2015-08-15T22:04:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Which is a conundrum for someone who had a good job before the Bush recession, but can’t make ends meet on service economy wages. The “Bush recession” is a misnomer, but even so, there have been plenty of recessions, and even a Great Depression, before, and people managed. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/88 "2015-08-15T22:06:32Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So now that we agree the US isn’t a free market, why should low wage earners be held to that standard? Living within one’s means isn’t a standard, it’s reality. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/89 "2015-08-15T22:08:33Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The “Bush recession” is a misnomer, but even so, there have been plenty of recessions, and even a Great Depression, before, and people managed. Some of them managed. Some lived in poverty for generations. Some of them starved. A very few prospered. All good? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/90 "2015-08-15T22:09:35Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Living within one’s means isn’t a standard, it’s reality. Means change. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/91 "2015-08-15T22:10:14Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Since _someone_ has to do jobs at the low end of the scale, what do you propose? > Do you believe that someone with few skills should just starve? What did they do before 1938? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/92 "2015-08-15T22:11:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Means change. Right. So do living conditions. Nothing says that the taxpayers should have to pick up the slack. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/93 "2015-08-15T22:11:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Living within one’s means isn’t a standard, it’s reality. So why do the wealthy enjoy corporate subsidies, lower tax rates and preferential tax credits? Can’t they live within their means? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/94 "2015-08-15T22:12:58Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What did they do before 1938? [Hoovervilles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville) You really think that’s the direction this country should go? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/95 "2015-08-15T22:13:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Right. So do living conditions. Nothing says that the taxpayers should have to pick up the slack. Why not? The least we can do is mandate a living wage. Business owners prosper because of our laws, and by our laws they can be compelled to contribute to the general welfare. It’s in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/96 "2015-08-15T22:14:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yes it is. If the employer is not paying its employees enough to live on without a subsidy, then the government is subsidising the employer. Not if that employer is already paying taxes to the Government. No subsidy to the employer is then taking place. All that’s happening is a merry-go-round of transfer payments between employer, government and employee. It’s also worth pointing out that many of those people unable to make ends meet on minimum wage are failing to make ends meet precisely because of things such as sales tax etc. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/97 "2015-08-15T22:15:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Some of them managed. Some lived in poverty for generations. Some of them starved. A very few prospered. All good? Cite that Americans are starving, please. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/98 "2015-08-15T22:17:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why not? The least we can do is mandate a living wage. Business owners prosper because of our laws, and by our laws they can be compelled to contribute to the general welfare. It’s in the Constitution. You made the statement. Back it up, please. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/99 "2015-08-15T22:18:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You made the statement. Back it up, please. I already have. Go back and read it again. Then give a report to the class. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/100 "2015-08-15T22:20:39Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Not if that employer is already paying taxes to the Government. No subsidy to the employer is then taking place. Yes it is. Taxes do more than to promote the individual welfare. By not paying living wages, companies add that much more to the burden – and they get to keep most of the money they’re not paying to employees. That’s a government subsidy, even if the company does not receive it directly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=6)