# Fallout from higher minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182 "2015-07-25T20:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/101 "2015-08-15T22:25:48Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Cite that Americans are starving, please. [John Hopkins](http://www.hopkinschildrens.org/Malnutrition.aspx) > [@](#): > > About 1% of children in the United States suffer from chronic malnutrition. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/102 "2015-08-15T22:28:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I already have. Go back and read it again. Then give a report to the class. No you haven’t. The “General Welfare” clause doesn’t have anything to do with the minimum wage. Have you ever taken a class? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/103 "2015-08-15T22:32:38Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [John Hopkins](http://www.hopkinschildrens.org/Malnutrition.aspx) From your own cite: > [@John Hopkins](#): > > Malnutrition occurs in people who are either undernourished or **overnourished.** Bolding mine. Do you have a cite that people are starving to death in the United States? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/104 "2015-08-15T22:36:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > From your own cite: > > Bolding mine. > > Do you have a cite that people are starving to death in the United States? So you find it acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/105 "2015-08-15T22:37:23Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > So you find it acceptable? Stop misrepresenting my statements, please. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/106 "2015-08-15T22:45:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yes it is. Taxes do more than to promote the individual welfare. By not paying living wages, companies add that much more to the burden – and they get to keep most of the money they’re not paying to employees. That’s a government subsidy, even if the company does not receive it directly. The price the company pays for the service it is buying is not decreased by the subsidy the worker receives. Or doesn’t receive, as is the case for many minimum wage workers. So the primary benefit to the employer is zero. The secondary effects may include increasing the price point at which the marginal worker will join the workplace, but I’m not convinced about that yet. If true, government subsidies to workers will make labor more expensive for businesses. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/107 "2015-08-15T22:48:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Stop misrepresenting my statements, please. I’m not. You don’t feel it’s a problem. Malnutrition is a lack of adequate intake of nutrients regardless if enough calories are consumed. You don’t see this as a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/108 "2015-08-15T22:54:51Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I’m not. You don’t feel it’s a problem. > Malnutrition is a lack of adequate intake of nutrients regardless if enough calories are consumed. You don’t see this as a problem. I dont think it a problem that is dealt with by an increased minimum wage. I assume most of this 1% are the kids of parents with drug abuse issues, or whose parents have mental health issues. 1% really is a small percentage in the great scheme of things. I can’t guarantee that every one of this 1% have fucked up parents, but im fairly sure most of them shall have parents who are less than adequate. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/109 "2015-08-15T22:55:40Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The “General Welfare” clause doesn’t have anything to do with the minimum wage. But we can write laws to compel business owners, as the Founders intended. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/110 "2015-08-15T23:00:34Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I dont think it a problem that is dealt with by an increased minimum wage. I assume most of this 1% are the kids of parents with drug abuse issues, or whose parents have mental health issues. 1% really is a small percentage in the great scheme of things. I can’t guarantee that every one of this 1% have fucked up parents, but im fairly sure most of them shall have parents who are less than adequate. And that’s a reason to ignore it? ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/111 "2015-08-15T23:03:39Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I’m not. You don’t feel it’s a problem. > Malnutrition is a lack of adequate intake of nutrients regardless if enough calories are consumed. You don’t see this as a problem. And throwing more money at irresponsible parents is going to solve that problem? How do you know that it’s the children of minimum-wage workers who are undernourished? Where did you people get this idea that society owes a certain “standard of living” to everyone? Minimum wage was never intended to guarantee any standard of living. Why is “living within your means” suddenly an evil concept? If you’re poor, then live like it! Be frugal, don’t expect luxuries like cable tv, smartphones, snack foods, etc, etc. Work hard and get a better job that pays more if you want a better life! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/112 "2015-08-15T23:04:45Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I dont think it a problem that is dealt with by an increased minimum wage. I assume most of this 1% are the kids of parents with drug abuse issues, or whose parents have mental health issues. 1% really is a small percentage in the great scheme of things. I can’t guarantee that every one of this 1% have fucked up parents, but im fairly sure most of them shall have parents who are less than adequate. [From here.](http://seacliffrecovery.com/addiction-recovery-blog/the-connection-between-poverty-and-drug-abuse/) > [@](#): > > According to the U.S. Census Bureau, approximately one out of every six **(48 million) Americans is living in poverty. 3.7 million of those in poverty are in need of treatment for drug or alcohol addiction**, but less than a quarter of those actually get the treatment they need. This is first of all because many of these people don’t know about treatment options, and many others don’t have access to a support system to help get them into rehab. Which is roughly 7.7% living in poverty have drug problems. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/113 "2015-08-15T23:08:43Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And that’s a reason to ignore it? No, but it is a reason _not_ to implement a policy that will in no meaningful way alleviate the problem. Fucked up parents who indulge in fucked up parenting will produce fucked up kids. A minimum wage of $25 per hour will not change this one iota. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/114 "2015-08-15T23:13:42Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Minimum wage was never intended to guarantee any standard of living. Actually, it was. When FDR proposed the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, he specifically said [workers have a right to a decent living](http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/odnirast.html), not just a subsistence wages: > [@](#): > > “In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By “business” I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.” Congress agreed, and his vision became law. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/115 "2015-08-15T23:14:04Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > And throwing more money at irresponsible parents is going to solve that problem? > How do you know that it’s the children of minimum-wage workers who are undernourished? > Where did you people get this idea that society owes a certain “standard of living” to everyone? Minimum wage was never intended to guarantee any standard of living. > Why is “living within your means” suddenly an evil concept? If you’re poor, then live like it! Be frugal, don’t expect luxuries like cable tv, smartphones, snack foods, etc, etc. > Work hard and get a better job that pays more if you want a better life! The minimum wage went 10 years without a raise while cost of living rose. Not everyone is capable or has i the inherent skills/talents to rise far. Why do you think there’s 1 CEO and 100,000 workers? Do you believe everyone can rise to the top? if you magically made everyone a genius with a PhD, who’s going to do the scut work? Will you pay them a wage in line with their educational achievements? Why can only a few people play pro sports if all you need is hard work and no talent? Do you believe that everyone in the country can become President? What do you do with the people at the low end of the curve? They don’t deserve a basic income? Did you ever think they may be working as hard as they can and it’s barely enough to stay afloat? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/116 "2015-08-15T23:52:03Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What do you do with the people at the low end of the curve? They don’t deserve a basic income? Did you ever think they may be working as hard as they can and it’s barely enough to stay afloat? Another poster wrote the following in another thread: > [@Income Inequality: revolution, taxes, or war?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/income-inequality-revolution-taxes-or-war/715573/157): > > 1. What is the minimum standard of living we will accept for the most incompetent, drug addict asshole? It’s all well and good to talk about education and training, but some people just don’t have the wherewithal to do much more than the most rudimentary jobs. Or any job for that matter. Do we just drive them into shanty towns on the outskirts of civilization like you find in places like Calcutta or Sao Paulo? I’ll ask the same about those with physical or intellectual deficits, not that I’m equating everyone here. Assuming the answer to the question is not “let them rot in the gutters,” the next question is what to do. Given that the sets of people making MW and those living in a way we find inadequate overlap poorly, I am leaning more toward other solutions. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/117 "2015-08-16T00:16:19Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I’m not. You don’t feel it’s a problem. > Malnutrition is a lack of adequate intake of nutrients regardless if enough calories are consumed. You don’t see this as a problem. You don’t know how I feel or see. Again, please stop assigning motives to me. Malnutrition doesn’t equal starvation, btw. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/118 "2015-08-16T00:19:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But we can write laws to compel business owners, as the Founders intended. Not based on the Preamble, we can’t. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/119 "2015-08-16T00:21:47Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You don’t know how I feel or see. Again, please stop assigning motives to me. > > Malnutrition doesn’t equal starvation, btw. So you don’t believe there’s any damage? Or do you just not give a shit? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/120 "2015-08-16T00:24:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What do you do with the people at the low end of the curve? They don’t deserve a basic income? No, they don’t. They “deserve” whatever they earn. Working for a living is not a new concept. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=7)