# Fallout from higher minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182 "2015-07-25T20:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/121 "2015-08-16T00:26:17Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > So you don’t believe there’s any damage? Or do you just not give a shit? I object to moving the goalposts. Upthread it was starvation, and since that doesn’t happen, it’s suddenly malnutrition. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/122 "2015-08-16T00:27:35Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, they don’t. They “deserve” whatever they earn. Working for a living is not a new concept. So you’ve never actually worked hard in your life, right? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/123 "2015-08-16T00:28:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I object to moving the goalposts. Upthread it was starvation, and since that doesn’t happen, it’s suddenly malnutrition. Like I said, you don’t care about malnutrition. And I never once mentioned starvation. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/124 "2015-08-16T00:33:09Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > You raise some salient points, but it isn’t only about education or training. It’s about showing up for work on time, every day, and working while you are there. I live in a low-cost area, and even here there are very few minimum wage jobs. People at stores or fast food restaurants might start at MW, but if they are even remotely diligent about showing up and actually working, they get pay bumps very quickly. > > My son is working a summer factory job, in a pretty crummy factory, and he makes $1.25 more than MW, as does everyone else who works there. Now, the company fires people who repeatedly show up late or don’t show up on time, which is eminently fair. Most other places who have menial labor pay more than MW once someone has been there for a few months and is productive. > > Another anecdote: a friend’s son worked at a distribution center while waiting for a permanent job in his chosen field. He signed on as a laborer. Within a month, he got a promotion and a raise. Employees there got bonuses for showing up on time and not screwing up orders. He ended up making $200 a week in bonuses just for showing up on time every day and not screwing up his orders, but there were lots of guys who simply couldn’t be bothered with meeting those minimal hurdles to get the bonuses. > > From my experience, if an adult makes minimum wage for very long, they are doing something wrong. And screw-ups should not count on minimum wage legislation to create “value” in the labor market for them. No, this. ^ ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/125 "2015-08-16T00:36:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Like I said, you don’t care about malnutrition. > > And I never once mentioned starvation. Yes, you did. Post #86. You can’t even keep your stories straight. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/126 "2015-08-16T00:37:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yes it is. Taxes do more than to promote the individual welfare. By not paying living wages, companies add that much more to the burden – and they get to keep most of the money they’re not paying to employees. That’s a government subsidy, even if the company does not receive it directly. Again, what is a living wage? Suppose I have two employees, one is 24 years old, single, lives in a room that he rents from a nice old lady, walks to work, and is happy to survive on beer, ramen noodles, and the occasional dime bag of weed he smokes on weekends. The second employee is 38 years old, has four children by four different women, owes back child support, got a degree in history that he still owes $50k in student loan payments, has a car payment, and a mortgage payment on a $250k home. These two individuals have vastly different concepts on what the amount of money they must receive to pay their bills or to simply survive. The point is that these individual concerns are NOT the concern of my business. I didn’t tell the guy to have four kids or to get a worthless degree. It is also not my good fortune that the other employee doesn’t need a car. These individual concerns bear no relation to the contract of employment I offer, nor to they appreciate MY side of this contract. The only just measure of what I should pay an employee is what his skills would demand on the open market and what value he brings to the business. Anything above that is simple charity. If the 24 year old has skills which command $100k per year, and the competitor down the road will pay him $100k per year, then I had better pony up or else lose his skills to that competitor. The argument that he doesn’t own a car, a house, or have children to support, so he doesn’t need $100k per year has absolutely, and it should be repeated, absolutely no bearing at all on our employment contract. He is free, as he should be, to earn that money and spend it on whatever he likes. Likewise, the 38 year old has skills which only command $9/hr. But he needs more than that to live! This fact, again, has no bearing on an employment contract anymore than the example of buying food at a grocer that I posted earlier. By employing someone, a business does not assume responsibility, as a guardian, for that individual. His lack of skill and need for a subsidy above and beyond what he is able to earn on the free market, is not something I created. His lack of skill remains after, and existed before he worked for me. Placing the burden for his care upon a business owner who may not even be making minimum wage himself is a ludicrous way of allocating social costs. I do not believe people should starve in the streets. I think that society has deemed that we should provide help for indigent people. But I likewise think that society itself should bear the burden, not the business owner who is already contributing to relieve that person’s poverty. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/127 "2015-08-16T00:42:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Yes, you did. Post #86. > > You can’t even keep your stories straight. :smack: I was not claiming that starvation exists or not in the US. I was asking if you were willing to let people starve. See? > [@running\_coach](#): > > Since _someone_ has to do jobs at the low end of the scale, what do you propose? > **Do you believe that someone with few skills should just starve?** ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/128 "2015-08-16T00:46:44Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I was not claiming that starvation exists or not in the US. I was asking if you were willing to let people starve. > > See? No one said people should starve. This is like the 4th time you’re attempting to misrepresent my position. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/129 "2015-08-16T00:48:37Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, what is a living wage? Maybe something like determining the minimum needed for the area. Such as lowest commonly available housing+amount awarded for food stamps (plus something to account for non-food items like soap and TP) + phone+ basic utilities. Granted, that would be very complex to actually determine the appropriate formula and will vary wildly between areas. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/130 "2015-08-16T00:50:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No one said people should starve. This is like the 4th time you’re attempting to misrepresent my position. You said corporations and government own no one a living wage. So if someone is low skill, maybe low intelligence and can’t make enough to live on, what do you propose? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/131 "2015-08-16T00:52:01Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Maybe something like determining the minimum needed for the area. Such as lowest commonly available housing+amount awarded for food stamps (plus something to account for non-food items like soap and TP) + phone+ basic utilities. > Granted, that would be very complex to actually determine the appropriate formula and will vary wildly between areas. Seriously? Where did you get the idea that the government owes you these things? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/132 "2015-08-16T00:54:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Not based on the Preamble, we can’t. How about the Supreme Court? [West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Hotel_Co._v._Parrish) > [@](#): > > West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish, 300 U.S. 379 (1937), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court upholding the constitutionality of minimum wage legislation enacted by the State of Washington, overturning an earlier decision in Adkins v. Children’s Hospital, 261 U.S. 525 (1923). Let me explain something to you. When the Supreme Court says something is constitutional, that means it is supported by the binding bits of the Constitution. The federal government can compel business to pay what ever minimum wage they want. They don’t need any other reason, so if they want to say it is for the general welfare, they don’t have to cite chapter and verse of the Constitution; they have the authority already. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/133 "2015-08-16T00:59:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How about the Supreme Court? > > [West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Hotel_Co._v._Parrish) > > Let me explain something to you. When the Supreme Court says something is constitutional, that means it is supported by the binding bits of the Constitution. The federal government can compel business to pay what ever minimum wage they want. They don’t need any other reason, so if they want to say it is for the general welfare, they don’t have to cite chapter and verse of the Constitution; they have the authority already. You can’t explain anything. > [@](#): > > The U.S. Supreme Court has held the mention of the clause in the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution “has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments.” > **[General welfare clause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause)** > > A general welfare clause is a section that appears in many constitutions and in some charters and statutes that allows that the governing body empowered by the document to enact laws to promote the general welfare of the people, which is sometimes worded as the public welfare. In some countries, it has been used as a basis for legislation promoting the health, safety, morals, and well-being of the people governed by it. > The Constitution of Argentina provides in its Preamble that one of its purpo... Isn’t this board moderated? Why do people keep posting things that are factually untrue? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/134 "2015-08-16T01:00:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How about the Supreme Court? > > [West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Hotel_Co._v._Parrish) > > Let me explain something to you. When the Supreme Court says something is constitutional, that means it is supported by the binding bits of the Constitution. The federal government can compel business to pay what ever minimum wage they want. They don’t need any other reason, so if they want to say it is for the general welfare, they don’t have to cite chapter and verse of the Constitution; they have the authority already. The feds may levy taxes to support the general welfare, not pass laws to support the general welfare. The minimum wage law survives under the commerce clause. Yes, the courts have held that a federal minimum wage law is constitutional. But is it a wise and just public policy? And, even more, where should the wage be set? At sustenance levels or that “living wage.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/135 "2015-08-16T01:05:07Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Maybe something like determining the minimum needed for the area. Such as lowest commonly available housing+amount awarded for food stamps (plus something to account for non-food items like soap and TP) + phone+ basic utilities. > Granted, that would be very complex to actually determine the appropriate formula and will vary wildly between areas. What about a doctor’s wife who wants to work to supplement the family’s income or simply because she wants something to do during the day. Why should her wage be based upon some calculation of minimal needs in the community? Why is a phone considered something necessary for survival? A basic phone or a smart phone? Land line or cell phone? What other basic utilities? Cable television? High speed internet? IOW, what is considered “basic” and who decides these things? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/136 "2015-08-16T01:10:51Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What about a doctor’s wife who wants to work to supplement the family’s income or simply because she wants something to do during the day. Why should her wage be based upon some calculation of minimal needs in the community? > > Why is a phone considered something necessary for survival? A basic phone or a smart phone? Land line or cell phone? What other basic utilities? Cable television? High speed internet? IOW, what is considered “basic” and who decides these things? I mean a basic bottom line for those who are unable to make more, not supplement high earners. You really think having a phone is a luxury? How about possible employers getting hold of a job applicant.Calling for medical aid or doing business in general? And since many employers only take applications over the internet, maybe that should be part. There’s a company locally that offers dial-up ( last I looked) for 99/year. i wasn’t trying to offer a complete plan but a suggestion for determining a living wage. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/137 "2015-08-16T01:16:00Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I wasn’t trying to offer a complete plan but a suggestion for determining a living wage. A living wage is whatever you can earn by actually working. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/138 "2015-08-16T01:19:46Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > A living wage is whatever you can earn by actually working. No, it’s not. How about someone who disabled and unable to work? Maybe someone of low IQ who can only handle simple janitorial duties or do piecework? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/139 "2015-08-16T01:21:34Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No, it’s not. > How about someone who disabled and unable to work? > Maybe someone of low IQ who can only handle simple janitorial duties or do piecework? According to whom? You? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182/140 "2015-08-16T01:27:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > According to whom? You? The VA and SSA both have criteria to determine disability. My mom was a stay at home as was typical of the 1950-1970s. At the age of 29, she contracted polio and was paralyzed from the waist down. No college, no job skills and unable to drive. Divorced by dad when I was 12. Younger brother, cerebral palsy and mentally handicapped. Requires a live-in aide. Are you going to tell them to go to hell? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallout-from-higher-minimum-wage/726182.md?page=8)