# Fallujah children's 'genetic damage' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784 "2010-07-23T23:27:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/41 "2010-07-25T01:51:52Z")
> [@Zanthor](#): > > what i said was. was what i said, how i said it was only the signpost, > if you think it mystical, you are again, dreaming… > seeing nothing, understanding nothing… > > the message was deformed children. > are we responsible, i say yes. > so far you have said zilch, cept attack me. > why do you not want to address the topic? We did address the topic. And you now it is you who have refused to readdress it. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/42 "2010-07-25T02:18:05Z")
> [@Zanthor](#): > > well, don’t read it then. nor comment > no one is forcing you to. > if your conscience is clean, pst off. anyways, its not like you are adding anything, about deformed children in the countries we decimate… > right? > > BTW, the way i write is my attempt at Sennyu > its how i think, > sorry if this is not Kosher for you So you’re [Audition Posting](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=569606)? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/43 "2010-07-25T05:56:35Z")
Random line lengths and punctuation are result of US policy of WMD is not that what we are all responsible for are we not ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/44 "2010-07-25T06:06:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [depleted uranium effects - Google Search](http://www.google.com/images?q=depleted+uranium+effects&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=YYRLTLTQA8qHnQe2oLiCDw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDgQsAQwAw&biw=1600&bih=835) Here are some more pictures of what we have done. ‘government of the people, by the people, for the people’ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/45 "2010-07-25T06:20:41Z")
Gotta be some way we can pin this on Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/46 "2010-07-25T09:46:01Z")
> [@Zanthor](#): > > BTW, the way i write is my attempt at Sennyu It’s not working. > [@](#): > > its how i think, Your brain cells have my pity. Are any of them still firing? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/47 "2010-07-25T12:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > [www.rt.com](http://www.rt.com) had a good article on it. > > Thoughts anyone? Yes. Rather than linked to a massive website where I have to hunt and search for this “good article” it would have been more helpful for you to link directly to it. I am on a 14 year old computer that chugs incredibly slowly on a video and graphic intensive site, so no, I’m not going to spend hours hunting for this “good article”. Not everyone has an up to date fast computer. > [@Zanthor](#): > > BBC News – Fallujah children’s ‘genetic damage’ > 21 Jul 2010 … Cancer, leukaemia and infant mortality are all increasing in the Iraqi town of Fallujah, which saw fierce fighting between US forces and … > [Fallujah children's 'genetic damage' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10721562) – 57k – Similar pages Pretty general report. Can’t make any objective judgements based on that one. > [@](#): > > ok, basically, news has been increasing for ages now about the incredible surging birth defects in Fallujah ( a city in Iraq we rubbled with all kinds of our WMD, basic info for those that neither know nor care where or what Fallujah is.) The US did not use weapons of mass destruction in Fallujah. It got shot all to hell, but strictly conventional, non-WMD can do that quite well. Exaggerate, much? > [@](#): > > Pictures and Vid I saw of the damaged children in both countries are beyond what humanity should have to suffer… As someone who is married to someone disabled by a birth defect, I get a little tired of people weeping and wailing over the poor deformed babies. Yes, there are horror stories out there, but none of what I saw on your BBC link would prevent a good and meaningful life. Certainly, deformities and disabilities make life harder, but it is often not as tragic as it first appears. I actually have looked into the rise in birth defects at Fallujah, and here is what I think based on what I have found out on my own: 1. Depleted uranium is actually _less_ radioactive than normal uranium, or uranium ore, or even some naturally occurring formations of things like granite. It is not Radioactive Death Bullets. There is NO, repeat NO indication that it causes genetic damage. It _does_, most certainly, cause kidney damage, but that is due to chemical properties and not radiation. Basically, you’d be dead of kidney failure long before any of its radioactivity could give you cancer or mess up your kids. However, there is one relevant effect here: men exposed to depleted uranium father significantly fewer boys than girls. So if the local men were significantly exposed to depleted uranium during fighting that could be a reason for the disparity in girls vs. boys born. Residual depleted uranium in the environment could be causing some kidney disease, but the linked article did not speak of that 2. Radon is a radioactive gas that vents out of the ground naturally, and tends to collect in low-lying areas like basements and bomb shelters. If people spent a lot of time huddling underground that could account for some new cancers - but that usually occurs _years_ after exposure. 3. Some of the birth defects cited in various reports are not “genetic damage” although they can be pretty horrific. Neural tube defects, for example (that’s what my spouse has, by the way) can run from mildly annoying to devastating. This is the spina bifida or "open spine’ spectrum, which is just what it says: the baby is born with his spinal column open to the air. This can occur anywhere from the tailbone (one of the less disabling forms IF promptly treated) to the skull (if the brain is “open” it’s anacephaly or “absent brain”, which is just what it sounds like and invariably fatal at or shortly after birth). THIS IS NOT GENETIC DAMAGE! It is a _developmental disorder_ where the spinal column fails to develop properly. Those who are not made sterile by the defect (or forcibly sterilized for eugenic purposes - common in the US through the 1960’s) are no more likely to have children with this defect than anyone else because - I repeat - it is NOT genetic in origin. **It is associated with malnutrition** - something that invariably seems to crop up during wartime due to shortages. Yes, it also showed up in Japan in 1945 but that was due to _food shortages_ not radiation or chemicals. Given what Fallujah has been through it should be expected that the incidence of these defects would rise sharply due _food supply issues alone_. 4. Polydactyly - more fingers and toes than normal - is a human variation seen all over the world. It both arises spontaneously, and can also run in families. When I see one of these “poor babies” with six fingers my first questions is “how many other relatives have this?” because it’s not THAT uncommon and doesn’t require radiation, chemicals, WMD’s, or other nefarious origins. 5. During wartime, people are reluctant to go to doctors when there is fighting in the streets, for obvious reasons. So an uptick in reported illness post-war has to account for the fact that more illnesses are reported, not just occurring. A premature, deformed infant born during a firefight is far more likely to die and be buried without informing the authorities than in peacetime. This affects reported rates of illness and morbidity. If a child is feeling poorly and there is fighting in the streets the parents are more likely to attempt to treat at home than take the child to the hospital, so some cases of cancer or chronic disease that might have been caught early aren’t diagnosed until peace comes, which definitely skews the statistics. So, birth defects and illness ALWAYS jump during war time and just after, but it has to due with deprivation, starvation, and untreated ailments as much as anything else that might be more sinister - note that the comparison is between Fallujah and Jordan, the latter of which was not at war in recent years. Until you account for ALL the factors at work it’s not possible to say that Fallujah is exceptional, or that something more sinister is going on. All too many of these “reports” present every deformed and ill child as the direct result of warfare and it just ain’t so. Even in peacetime, even in the best environments, about 3% of all births involve some defect or other and the less ideal the environment the higher that rate, regardless of whether the cause is war or famine or plague or whatever. Yes, it’s heart wrenching to see deformed and ill children. That’s why people show them off - to gain sympathy and in some cases to encourage donation to a cause. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/48 "2010-07-25T12:42:23Z")
> [@Zanthor](#): > > This ’ other crap’ you mention > please define for me just what this is, so i can tell just how much you have washed your blood stained hands. > no offense, just curious is all. Sorry - you don’t get to say “your blood stained hands” then “no offense” - the first statement was clearly intended to shock and offend. So… you don’t want a discuss, you just want to lay a guilt trip on people. Well, fine, this is the Pit and not Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/49 "2010-07-25T12:57:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [depleted uranium effects - Google Search](http://www.google.com/images?q=depleted+uranium+effects&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=YYRLTLTQA8qHnQe2oLiCDw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDgQsAQwAw&biw=1600&bih=835) Here are some more pictures of what we have done. Uh… er… _charming_ pictures… OK, going left to right and starting at the top, I have no clue what the first one is, the second is a harlequin ichthyosis baby, which is not linked to radiation or chemicals and happens from time to time all over the world. Number three isn’t a person. Number four is a holoprocephaly defect (hope I spelled the big word right) which is, again, a disorder of the developing fetus and occurs all over the world from time to time spontaneously. Number 5, I don’t know. Next row - first picture isn’t people - nice bullets or missiles or whatever, propaganda much? Next too pictures are presented as “depleted uranium babies” I can’t read a whole lot of the text behind the pictures when you click on them, but what I gather is that people are attributing these defects to radiation _despite the fact that depleted uranium is LESS radioactive than some naturally occurring environments_. Number 4 has microcephalia near as I can tell- which can be attributed to _many_ causes, from malnutrition in the mother to, yes, radiation but the fact is most cases have no clear-cut cause. Later one we have yet another picture of harequin ichthyosis and some cleft palates - the latter a tragically common birth defect that doesn’t require sinister causes, it happens everywhere. Enough - this gets tiresome. In other words - yes, there are deformed children. If a doctor randomly examined any of them, without knowing their place of birth, not one of them would the doctor say “Oh, this was definitely caused by warfare”. The amount of suffering visited on a population by war is not trivial, from the destruction of homes to untreated illnesses to starvation and deprivation. But shouldn’t we be upset about those sufferings by themselves? Really, parading deformed babies to garner sympathy or provoke guilt is nothing more than _explointing_ the disabled and deformed for ulterior causes. Your posturing, Zanthor, does nothing and helps no one. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/50 "2010-07-25T13:55:47Z")
I’d agree to be so specific when research is still on going is extremely unhelpful. The truth is ‘we’ don’t know what combination of weaponry caused the following: > [@](#): > > a survey showing a four-fold increase in all cancers and a 12-fold increase in childhood cancer in under-14s. Infant mortality in the city is more than four times higher than in neighbouring Jordan and eight times higher than in Kuwait. > [@](#): > > Dr Chris Busby, a visiting professor at the University of Ulster and one of the authors of the survey of 4,800 individuals in Fallujah, said it is difficult to pin down the exact cause of the cancers and birth defects. He added that\*\* “to produce an effect like this, some very major mutagenic exposure must have occurred in 2004 when the attacks happened”\*\*. [Toxic legacy of US assault on Fallujah ‘worse than Hiroshima’](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/toxic-legacy-of-us-assault-on-fallujah-worse-than-hiroshima-2034065.html) > [@](#): > > **Researchers found a 38-fold increase in leukaemia, a ten-fold increase in female breast cancer and significant increases in lymphoma and brain tumours in adults.** At Hiroshima survivors showed a 17-fold increase in leukaemia, but in Fallujah Dr Busby says what is striking is not only the greater prevalence of cancer but the speed with which it was affecting people. > > **Of particular significance was the finding that the sex ratio between newborn boys and girls had changed.** In a normal population this is 1,050 boys born to 1,000 girls, but for those born from 2005 there was an 18 per cent drop in male births, so the ratio was 850 males to 1,000 females. The sex-ratio is an indicator of genetic damage that affects boys more than girls. A similar change in the sex-ratio was discovered after Hiroshima. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/51 "2010-07-25T14:01:03Z")
> [@Zanthor](#): > > This ‘other crap’ you mention > please define for me just what this is, > so i can tell just how much you have washed your blood stained hands. > no offense, just curious is all. If you’re going to try and channel Dr. Seuss, you must learn to rhyme! This ‘other crap’ you mention please define just what this is Then wipe your blood-stain hands; and deny it was your biz. Okay, that was more like a bad rap, but you get the drift. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/52 "2010-07-25T15:40:21Z")
A noob with a 2003 join date? That’s a new one. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/53 "2010-07-26T00:46:13Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > I’d agree to be so specific when research is still on going is extremely unhelpful. The truth is ‘we’ don’t know what combination of weaponry caused the following: > > > [@](#): > > > > a survey showing a four-fold increase in all cancers and a 12-fold increase in childhood cancer in under-14s. Infant mortality in the city is more than four times higher than in neighbouring Jordan and eight times higher than in Kuwait. > > > [@](#): > > > > Dr Chris Busby, a visiting professor at the University of Ulster and one of the authors of the survey of 4,800 individuals in Fallujah, said it is difficult to pin down the exact cause of the cancers and birth defects. He added that\*\* “to produce an effect like this, some very major mutagenic exposure must have occurred in 2004 when the attacks happened”\*\*. > > [Toxic legacy of US assault on Fallujah ‘worse than Hiroshima’](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/toxic-legacy-of-us-assault-on-fallujah-worse-than-hiroshima-2034065.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > **Researchers found a 38-fold increase in leukaemia, a ten-fold increase in female breast cancer and significant increases in lymphoma and brain tumours in adults.** At Hiroshima survivors showed a 17-fold increase in leukaemia, but in Fallujah Dr Busby says what is striking is not only the greater prevalence of cancer but the speed with which it was affecting people. > > > > **Of particular significance was the finding that the sex ratio between newborn boys and girls had changed.** In a normal population this is 1,050 boys born to 1,000 girls, but for those born from 2005 there was an 18 per cent drop in male births, so the ratio was 850 males to 1,000 females. The sex-ratio is an indicator of genetic damage that affects boys more than girls. A similar change in the sex-ratio was discovered after Hiroshima. thank you sir, this article you quoted, [Toxic legacy of US assault on Fallujah 'worse than Hiroshima' | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/toxic-legacy-of-us-assault-on-fallujah-worse-than-hiroshima-2034065.html) is almost identical to the original i viewed near one week ago., but it was from one of their sources, i forget which exactly, i view so many, lost track. Must be the acid 1960’s soaked brain cells huh? Thing that struck me most is that the deformed Children abnormalities have skyrocketed these past few years, unknown causes.. the debate was meant to be, what is the cause, why is it so..who is at fault. was it us? what are we going to do about it? simple questions really.. Much as news of this Iraq travesty coincided with Clintons visit to Vietnam, when she was presented with evidence of Agent Orange deformed babies. she said she would ‘look into it’ ( sic ) My question was, just how many decades does it take to ‘look into it’ answer, much like the present response in this thread basically, stonewalling, whitewash, applied in liberal doeses, as usual. it was not us, it is someone else. i say BS. What say you? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/54 "2010-07-26T01:10:22Z")
> [@Zanthor](#): > > Thing that struck me most is that the deformed Children abnormalities have skyrocketed these past few years, unknown causes.. > the debate was meant to be, > what is the cause, why is it so..who is at fault. > was it us? what are we going to do about it? > simple questions really.. That wasn’t your argument at all. Your argument was that I had blood on my hands (‘no offense’): > [@Zanthor](#): > > This ’ other crap’ you mention > please define for me just what this is, so i can tell just how much you have washed your blood stained hands. > no offense, just curious is all. See? Not so easy to pack peddel when your statement is right there, 'eh? > [@Zanthor](#): > > Much as news of this Iraq travesty coincided with Clintons visit to Vietnam, when she was presented with evidence of Agent Orange deformed babies. > she said she would ‘look into it’ ( sic ) > > My question was, just how many decades does it take to ‘look into it’ > > answer, much like the present response in this thread > basically, stonewalling, whitewash, applied in liberal doeses, as usual. > it was not us, it is someone else. > i say BS. > What say you? _cough_ did you bother to read your own thread, you assclown of a moron, you? > [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > [www.rt.com](http://www.rt.com) had a good article on it. > > > > Thoughts anyone? > > Yes. Rather than linked to a massive website where I have to hunt and search for this “good article” it would have been more helpful for you to link directly to it. I am on a 14 year old computer that chugs incredibly slowly on a video and graphic intensive site, so no, I’m not going to spend hours hunting for this “good article”. Not everyone has an up to date fast computer. > > > [@Zanthor](#): > > > > BBC News – Fallujah children’s ‘genetic damage’ > > 21 Jul 2010 … Cancer, leukaemia and infant mortality are all increasing in the Iraqi town of Fallujah, which saw fierce fighting between US forces and … > > [Fallujah children's 'genetic damage' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10721562) – 57k – Similar pages > > Pretty general report. Can’t make any objective judgements based on that one. > > > [@](#): > > > > ok, basically, news has been increasing for ages now about the incredible surging birth defects in Fallujah ( a city in Iraq we rubbled with all kinds of our WMD, basic info for those that neither know nor care where or what Fallujah is.) > > The US did not use weapons of mass destruction in Fallujah. It got shot all to hell, but strictly conventional, non-WMD can do that quite well. Exaggerate, much? > > > [@](#): > > > > Pictures and Vid I saw of the damaged children in both countries are beyond what humanity should have to suffer… > > As someone who is married to someone disabled by a birth defect, I get a little tired of people weeping and wailing over the poor deformed babies. Yes, there are horror stories out there, but none of what I saw on your BBC link would prevent a good and meaningful life. Certainly, deformities and disabilities make life harder, but it is often not as tragic as it first appears. > > I actually have looked into the rise in birth defects at Fallujah, and here is what I think based on what I have found out on my own: > > 1. Depleted uranium is actually _less_ radioactive than normal uranium, or uranium ore, or even some naturally occurring formations of things like granite. It is not Radioactive Death Bullets. There is NO, repeat NO indication that it causes genetic damage. It _does_, most certainly, cause kidney damage, but that is due to chemical properties and not radiation. Basically, you’d be dead of kidney failure long before any of its radioactivity could give you cancer or mess up your kids. However, there is one relevant effect here: men exposed to depleted uranium father significantly fewer boys than girls. So if the local men were significantly exposed to depleted uranium during fighting that could be a reason for the disparity in girls vs. boys born. Residual depleted uranium in the environment could be causing some kidney disease, but the linked article did not speak of that > > 2. Radon is a radioactive gas that vents out of the ground naturally, and tends to collect in low-lying areas like basements and bomb shelters. If people spent a lot of time huddling underground that could account for some new cancers - but that usually occurs _years_ after exposure. > > 3. Some of the birth defects cited in various reports are not “genetic damage” although they can be pretty horrific. Neural tube defects, for example (that’s what my spouse has, by the way) can run from mildly annoying to devastating. This is the spina bifida or "open spine’ spectrum, which is just what it says: the baby is born with his spinal column open to the air. This can occur anywhere from the tailbone (one of the less disabling forms IF promptly treated) to the skull (if the brain is “open” it’s anacephaly or “absent brain”, which is just what it sounds like and invariably fatal at or shortly after birth). THIS IS NOT GENETIC DAMAGE! It is a _developmental disorder_ where the spinal column fails to develop properly. Those who are not made sterile by the defect (or forcibly sterilized for eugenic purposes - common in the US through the 1960’s) are no more likely to have children with this defect than anyone else because - I repeat - it is NOT genetic in origin. **It is associated with malnutrition** - something that invariably seems to crop up during wartime due to shortages. Yes, it also showed up in Japan in 1945 but that was due to _food shortages_ not radiation or chemicals. Given what Fallujah has been through it should be expected that the incidence of these defects would rise sharply due _food supply issues alone_. > > 4. Polydactyly - more fingers and toes than normal - is a human variation seen all over the world. It both arises spontaneously, and can also run in families. When I see one of these “poor babies” with six fingers my first questions is “how many other relatives have this?” because it’s not THAT uncommon and doesn’t require radiation, chemicals, WMD’s, or other nefarious origins. > > 5. During wartime, people are reluctant to go to doctors when there is fighting in the streets, for obvious reasons. So an uptick in reported illness post-war has to account for the fact that more illnesses are reported, not just occurring. A premature, deformed infant born during a firefight is far more likely to die and be buried without informing the authorities than in peacetime. This affects reported rates of illness and morbidity. If a child is feeling poorly and there is fighting in the streets the parents are more likely to attempt to treat at home than take the child to the hospital, so some cases of cancer or chronic disease that might have been caught early aren’t diagnosed until peace comes, which definitely skews the statistics. > > So, birth defects and illness ALWAYS jump during war time and just after, but it has to due with deprivation, starvation, and untreated ailments as much as anything else that might be more sinister - note that the comparison is between Fallujah and Jordan, the latter of which was not at war in recent years. Until you account for ALL the factors at work it’s not possible to say that Fallujah is exceptional, or that something more sinister is going on. All too many of these “reports” present every deformed and ill child as the direct result of warfare and it just ain’t so. Even in peacetime, even in the best environments, about 3% of all births involve some defect or other and the less ideal the environment the higher that rate, regardless of whether the cause is war or famine or plague or whatever. > > Yes, it’s heart wrenching to see deformed and ill children. That’s why people show them off - to gain sympathy and in some cases to encourage donation to a cause. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/55 "2010-07-26T01:11:40Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > > [@Zanthor](#): > > > > This ‘other crap’ you mention > > please define for me just what this is, > > so i can tell just how much you have washed your blood stained hands. > > no offense, just curious is all. > > If you’re going to try and channel Dr. Seuss, you must learn to rhyme! > > This ‘other crap’ you mention > please define just what this is > Then wipe your blood-stain hands; > and deny it was your biz. > > Okay, that was more like a bad rap, but you get the drift. Nope, does not have to rhyme. That is in fact the worse thing one can do. to insist on rhyme indicates you accept you must conform to what is acceptable, to some token transient majorities current viewpoint of what is and what is not acceptable… You don’t see this huh? Basically, where is the freedom in conforming? the temporary illusion of acceptance by the deaden masses? Sell your Soul that cheap huh? This is what the 60’s was supposed to be about. Freedom, from acceptance. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/56 "2010-07-26T01:19:01Z")
> [@Zanthor](#): > > > [@PunditLisa](#): > > > > > [@Zanthor](#): > > > > > > This ‘other crap’ you mention > > > please define for me just what this is, > > > so i can tell just how much you have washed your blood stained hands. > > > no offense, just curious is all. > > > > If you’re going to try and channel Dr. Seuss, you must learn to rhyme! > > > > This ‘other crap’ you mention > > please define just what this is > > Then wipe your blood-stain hands; > > and deny it was your biz. > > > > Okay, that was more like a bad rap, but you get the drift. > > Nope, does not have to rhyme. > That is in fact the worse thing one can do. > > to insist on rhyme indicates you accept you must conform to what is acceptable, to some token transient majorities current viewpoint of what is and what is not acceptable… > You don’t see this huh? > Basically, where is the freedom in conforming? > the temporary illusion of acceptance by the deaden masses? > Sell your Soul that cheap huh? > This is what the 60’s was supposed to be about. > Freedom, from acceptance. What you have isn’t freedom from acceptance, it’s freedom from intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/57 "2010-07-26T01:24:27Z")
[quote=“Todderbob, post:54, topic:547784”] > [@Zanthor](#): > > Thing that struck me most is that the deformed Children abnormalities have skyrocketed these past few years, unknown causes.. > the debate was meant to be, > what is the cause, why is it so..who is at fault. > was it us? what are we going to do about it? > simple questions really.. That wasn’t your argument at all. Your argument was that I had blood on my hands (‘no offense’): > [@Zanthor](#): > > This ’ other crap’ you mention > please define for me just what this is, so i can tell just how much you have washed your blood stained hands. > no offense, just curious is all. See? Not so easy to pack peddel when your statement is right there, 'eh? > [@Zanthor](#): > > Much as news of this Iraq travesty coincided with Clintons visit to Vietnam, when she was presented with evidence of Agent Orange deformed babies. > she said she would ‘look into it’ ( sic ) > > My question was, just how many decades does it take to ‘look into it’ > > answer, much like the present response in this thread > basically, stonewalling, whitewash, applied in liberal doeses, as usual. > it was not us, it is someone else. > i say BS. > What say you? _cough_ did you bother to read your own thread, you assclown of a moron, you? > [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > [www.rt.com](http://www.rt.com) had a good article on it. > > > > Thoughts anyone? > > Yes. Rather than linked to a massive website where I have to hunt and search for this “good article” it would have been more helpful for you to link directly to it. I am on a 14 year old computer that chugs incredibly slowly on a video and graphic intensive site, so no, I’m not going to spend hours hunting for this “good article”. Not everyone has an up to date fast computer. > > > [@Zanthor](#): > > > > BBC News – Fallujah children’s ‘genetic damage’ > > 21 Jul 2010 … Cancer, leukaemia and infant mortality are all increasing in the Iraqi town of Fallujah, which saw fierce fighting between US forces and … > > [Fallujah children's 'genetic damage' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10721562) – 57k – Similar pages > > Pretty general report. Can’t make any objective judgements based on that one. > > > [@](#): > > > > ok, basically, news has been increasing for ages now about the incredible surging birth defects in Fallujah ( a city in Iraq we rubbled with all kinds of our WMD, basic info for those that neither know nor care where or what Fallujah is.) > > The US did not use weapons of mass destruction in Fallujah. It got shot all to hell, but strictly conventional, non-WMD can do that quite well. Exaggerate, much? > > > [@](#): > > > > Pictures and Vid I saw of the damaged children in both countries are beyond what humanity should have to suffer… > > As someone who is married to someone disabled by a birth defect, I get a little tired of people weeping and wailing over the poor deformed babies. Yes, there are horror stories out there, but none of what I saw on your BBC link would prevent a good and meaningful life. Certainly, deformities and disabilities make life harder, but it is often not as tragic as it first appears. > > I actually have looked into the rise in birth defects at Fallujah, and here is what I think based on what I have found out on my own: > > 1. Depleted uranium is actually _less_ radioactive than normal uranium, or uranium ore, or even some naturally occurring formations of things like granite. It is not Radioactive Death Bullets. There is NO, repeat NO indication that it causes genetic damage. It _does_, most certainly, cause kidney damage, but that is due to chemical properties and not radiation. Basically, you’d be dead of kidney failure long before any of its radioactivity could give you cancer or mess up your kids. However, there is one relevant effect here: men exposed to depleted uranium father significantly fewer boys than girls. So if the local men were significantly exposed to depleted uranium during fighting that could be a reason for the disparity in girls vs. boys born. Residual depleted uranium in the environment could be causing some kidney disease, but the linked article did not speak of that > > 2. Radon is a radioactive gas that vents out of the ground naturally, and tends to collect in low-lying areas like basements and bomb shelters. If people spent a lot of time huddling underground that could account for some new cancers - but that usually occurs _years_ after exposure. > > 3. Some of the birth defects cited in various reports are not “genetic damage” although they can be pretty horrific. Neural tube defects, for example (that’s what my spouse has, by the way) can run from mildly annoying to devastating. This is the spina bifida or "open spine’ spectrum, which is just what it says: the baby is born with his spinal column open to the air. This can occur anywhere from the tailbone (one of the less disabling forms IF promptly treated) to the skull (if the brain is “open” it’s anacephaly or “absent brain”, which is just what it sounds like and invariably fatal at or shortly after birth). THIS IS NOT GENETIC DAMAGE! It is a _developmental disorder_ where the spinal column fails to develop properly. Those who are not made sterile by the defect (or forcibly sterilized for eugenic purposes - common in the US through the 1960’s) are no more likely to have children with this defect than anyone else because - I repeat - it is NOT genetic in origin. **It is associated with malnutrition** - something that invariably seems to crop up during wartime due to shortages. Yes, it also showed up in Japan in 1945 but that was due to _food shortages_ not radiation or chemicals. Given what Fallujah has been through it should be expected that the incidence of these defects would rise sharply due _food supply issues alone_. > > 4. Polydactyly - more fingers and toes than normal - is a human variation seen all over the world. It both arises spontaneously, and can also run in families. When I see one of these “poor babies” with six fingers my first questions is “how many other relatives have this?” because it’s not THAT uncommon and doesn’t require radiation, chemicals, WMD’s, or other nefarious origins. > > 5. During wartime, people are reluctant to go to doctors when there is fighting in the streets, for obvious reasons. So an uptick in reported illness post-war has to account for the fact that more illnesses are reported, not just occurring. A premature, deformed infant born during a firefight is far more likely to die and be buried without informing the authorities than in peacetime. This affects reported rates of illness and morbidity. If a child is feeling poorly and there is fighting in the streets the parents are more likely to attempt to treat at home than take the child to the hospital, so some cases of cancer or chronic disease that might have been caught early aren’t diagnosed until peace comes, which definitely skews the statistics. > > So, birth defects and illness ALWAYS jump during war time and just after, but it has to due with deprivation, starvation, and untreated ailments as much as anything else that might be more sinister - note that the comparison is between Fallujah and Jordan, the latter of which was not at war in recent years. Until you account for ALL the factors at work it’s not possible to say that Fallujah is exceptional, or that something more sinister is going on. All too many of these “reports” present every deformed and ill child as the direct result of warfare and it just ain’t so. Even in peacetime, even in the best environments, about 3% of all births involve some defect or other and the less ideal the environment the higher that rate, regardless of whether the cause is war or famine or plague or whatever. > > Yes, it’s heart wrenching to see deformed and ill children. That’s why people show them off - to gain sympathy and in some cases to encourage donation to a cause. [/QUOTE I will redefine ‘blood on your hands’ just for you, since you simply do not seem to be getting it. I was curious how aware you . ( not you personally ) ( rather, each of us in the West that lays waste to foreign nations - preemptively ) were and are aware of the issues of guilt by association, complicity, silent consent to the atrocities we commit.? So far i get the Pontious Pilate thing, our hands are clean, it was not us that diid this. Sorry, its just the way it look so far by the responses. Attack the messenger being the most humorous, as if that will make the issues go away… lol NOT that you personally invaded the whole ME, all by yourself, laid waste to it with all kinds of WMD. ( our WMD… ) and we have many x many, we just don’t call them WMD, but they do, and what they think is what counts, cos they are the ones being wasted by the hunfdreds and hundreds of thousands, NOT US\>\>\>\> ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/58 "2010-07-26T01:35:16Z")
Yeah… You’re still a moron. Perception does not make reality. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/59 "2010-07-26T01:38:12Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > > [@Zanthor](#): > > > > BTW, the way i write is my attempt at Sennyu > > It’s not working. > > > [@](#): > > > > its how i think, > > Your brain cells have my pity. Are any of them still firing? here, the true colours of a vulture, nothing to add, just to take, try to deride, consume, dominate. zero comprehension, zero ability. just attack. America personified… pretty much typifies the US’s approach to the whole world.huh? Dominance, greed and lust. Zero Compassion, zero much of anything really, cept SELF… ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784/60 "2010-07-26T01:39:34Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Yeah… You’re still a moron. Perception does not make reality. and you still have not manages to address the topic, much. - why do you bother continuing wasting air and Space? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-childrens-genetic-damage/547784.md?page=4)