# Fallujah postmortem **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828 "2004-11-15T06:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/21 "2004-11-15T19:41:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Any Iraqi (or visiting foreigner) **violently** opposed to the occupation is, by definition, an “insurgent” or a “terrorist” – or a “freedom fighter,” if the word like you better. Tomayto, tomahto. Anyone non-violently opposed to the occupation is merely a “dissident.” One big difference is that if you’re a “freedom fighter” Ollie North will arrange super-secret illegal weapons sales to fund your insurgency although Congress has specifically outlawed giving you money. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/22 "2004-11-15T19:44:50Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Did this have to be done? > > 2. Could it have been done better? E.g., with less loss of life? (38 American and Iraqi troops, reported dead, 1,000 to 2,000 insurgents dead, no estimate of civilian casualties mentioned.) > > 3. Apart from overpowering organized resistance, were the attack’s objectives achieved? E.g., how many of the insurgents got away? > > 4. What now? Will Fallujah be peaceful enough to participate in the January elections? > > 5. Now there’s more violence reported in Mosul. Will that be the next battleground? 1- Probably. The new Iraqi government would not be regarded as legitimate even in Iraq if such a large rebel outpost were allowed to remain. 2- Maybe. The number of US dead is relatively small, the number of Iraqi civilians killed is likely never to be known. 3- Who knows? But for every insurgent killed, were two more recruited? You can win the battle but lose the war of opinion. 4- The election will take place and certainly “officially” Fallujah will be part of it. Realistically, the election will be about as free as if Diebold and Jeb Bush were running it. 5- Immaterial. There will always be a next battleground. There is an endless supply ol insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/23 "2004-11-15T20:42:01Z")
I’ve been hearing reports that the US forces have been preventing Red Crescent aid workers from going into Fallujah, and that they were also refusing to let adult males leave the city, essentially penning them inside for the slaughter. Assuming these are true (are they?), that would make Fallujah a(nother) horrifying atrocity for the US in the eyes of the world. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/24 "2004-11-15T20:50:05Z")
Take note of **Monocracy’s** quote above: “…mosques in ruins…”. Seems simple enough, tucked away with all the other collateral damage. It isn’t. Note as well the casualty figures, so heavily weighted towards US soldiers, rather light for our alleged Iraqi “allies”. Shouldn’t that be the other way round? And of course, the body count. Starting out, they were saying stuff like “3,000 to 5,000” insurgents, which then dropped to “600 to 1,200”, of which “up tp 1,200” have been killed. Your Corpses May Vary. And we have gained? Presumed legitimacy for an election that looks more or less unlikely. Oh, what a lovely war. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/25 "2004-11-15T20:55:57Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I’ve been hearing reports that the US forces have been preventing Red Crescent aid workers from going into Fallujah, and that they were also refusing to let adult males leave the city, essentially penning them inside for the slaughter. Assuming these are true (are they?), that would make Fallujah a(nother) horrifying atrocity for the US in the eyes of the world. I haven’t heard anything about preventing Red Crescent aid workers from going in, though its plausable I suppose…it WAS a war zone after all, so they might not have allowed anyone to go in until things were a bit calmer. My guess is the Red Crescent didn’t want to go in anyway until things were calmer. If you have a cite though lets take a look. As to turning back adult males, I’ve heard that one as well…and it makes perfect sense to me (and my guess is to most others as well). I can’t remember the age range, but it was something like adult males from 16-60…something like that. I doubt there will be much of a backlash over that one…most people realize that its a valid precaution, as terrorists and insurgents don’t go around with a badge on their chest proclaiming themselves to BE terrorists and insurgents. Frankly I’d be surprised if they HAD of simply passed out any males of fighting age, as this would have been an excellent way for insurgent types trapped in the city to slip out, no? As to another ‘horrifying atrocity’ for the US in the eyes of the world, the world (and you) needs to get a grip if anything we’ve done in Iraq (including Abu Ghraib) was a ‘horrifying autrocity’. This is not to give such incidents a pass or wave them off…but in the ‘horrifying autrocity’ department the US is clearly second string. Now, if you have evidence we’ve deliberately set about exterminating the remaining inhabitants in Fallujah through summary executions, have condoned rape and torture of the remaining inhabitants, etc, then we can talk about the US’s 'horrifying autrocity’s ehe? -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/26 "2004-11-15T20:58:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And we have gained? Presumed legitimacy for an election that looks more or less unlikely. Oh, I think we gained more than that, at least tactically. Time will tell I suppose. > [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, what a lovely war. Well, I agree with the underlying sentiment there…its a cluster fuck, no doubts there. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/27 "2004-11-15T21:04:12Z")
And this just in, from an AP reporter apparently native to Iraq… > [@](#): > > … In the hours and days that followed, heavy bombing raids and thunderous artillery shelling turned Hussein’s northern Jolan neighborhood into a zone of rubble and death. The walls of his house were pockmarked by coalition fire. > > “Destruction was everywhere. I saw people lying dead in the streets, wounded were bleeding and there was no one to come and help them. Even the civilians who stayed in Fallujah were too afraid to go out,” he said. > > “There was no medicine, water, no electricity nor food for days.” … > > Hussein moved from house to house — dodging gunfire — and reached the river. > > “I decided to swim … but I changed my mind after seeing U.S. helicopters firing on and killing people who tried to cross the river.” > > He watched horrified as a family of five was shot dead as they tried to cross. Then, he “helped bury a man by the river bank, with my own hands.” … This can’t be true. This must not be true. But sweet Jesus, what if it is? [http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041114/ap\_on\_re\_mi\_ea/iraq\_escaping\_fallujah\_1](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041114/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_escaping_fallujah_1) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/28 "2004-11-15T21:05:18Z")
_WARNING: BIASED SOURCE AHEAD_ [http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/index.php#pr9](http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/index.php#pr9) Estimates for civilian deaths are around 600 from most reports I’ve seen. So we have 40-odd US/Allied deaths, ~600 civilian deaths, and “up to 1200” insurgent/terrorist deaths Note that these figures only count _deaths_, not injuries. Last I checked, American casualties were 300-400. I think it safe to assume that injuries for civilians and insurgents are higher. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/29 "2004-11-15T21:11:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This can’t be true. This must not be true. But sweet Jesus, what if it is? > > [http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041114/ap\_on\_re\_mi\_ea/iraq\_escaping\_fallujah\_1](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041114/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_escaping_fallujah_1) I seriously hope that isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/30 "2004-11-15T21:18:26Z")
**Tapioca\_Dextrin** , **Monocracy** – thanks for the cites. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/31 "2004-11-15T22:01:32Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **"We had to destroy the village in order to save it"** – unattributed quote from the Vietnam War. Actually this has pretty much been attributed to Peter Arnett himself, though he claimed at the time to quote an unnamed major it now seems most likely he invented the phrase himself. It’s a brilliant phrase to rally behind for the anti-war groups, but fortunately had (and has) little to do with the truth. Ben Tre wasn’t destroyed (nor saved for that matter) and neither is Falluja – whether it’s saved remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/32 "2004-11-15T22:05:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I haven’t heard anything about preventing Red Crescent aid workers from going in, though its plausable I suppose…it WAS a war zone after all, so they might not have allowed anyone to go in until things were a bit calmer. My guess is the Red Crescent didn’t want to go in anyway until things were calmer. If you have a cite though lets take a look. [Here](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200411/s1244248.htm): > [@](#): > > A convoy of aid from Iraq’s Red Crescent has withdrawn from a hospital on the edge of Fallujah, after failing to get permission to deliver supplies to residents inside the city. > > The Red Crescent fears that civilians are dying of starvation and a lack of medical equipment inside Fallujah, which has been the scene of ferocious fighting pitting US and Iraqi troops against militants. > > But the US military has so far denied the Red Crescent’s aid convoy entry to the main part of the city on the grounds that it is not safe. > > The officer in charge of the US marines humanitarian effort, Colonel John Ballard, said US troops would be able to deliver all the help that was needed and disputed the Red Crescent’s reports of a humanitarian crisis. > > … ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/33 "2004-11-15T22:10:08Z")
[**Doctor is haunted by siege of Fallujah**](http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041115/REPOSITORY/411150349/1013/NEWS03) > [@](#): > > As fighting raged for a week, few civilian accounts of the battle have been available, and there have been only scattered reports on casualties. But as combat eased, Ghanim and other survivors emerged and began to tell their stories. > > “We were kicked out by the (Iraqi National Guard); even the Americans weren’t as harsh as them,” said Farhan Khalaf, 58, who had been at Fallujah General Hospital when it was seized. > > "They were roughing up patients and tying up the doctors, hitting them in some instances,"he added. “They stole whatever valuables they could get their hands on, including money and cell phones. This is unacceptable. How could they do this against their own people?” > > Last Monday came and went. On Tuesday, the bombing came closer to the city center. The doctors were busy. > > “I was doing amputations for many patients. But I am an orthopedic surgeon; if a patient came to me with an abdominal injury, I could do nothing,” he said, eyes cast down, close to tears. “We would bring the patient in, and we would have to let him die.” > > Electricity to the city was cut off. There was no water, no food, no fluids for the patients, Ghanim said. But the patients just kept coming. > > “We were treating everyone. There were women, children, mujahids. I don’t ask someone if they are a fighter before I treat them. I just take care of them,” he said. > > Late Tuesday, a bomb struck one side of the triage center. Ghanim ran out of the building. > > A second bomb hit, crashing through the roof and destroying most of the facility. Ghanim believes it killed at least two or three of the young resident doctors working there and most of the patients. > > “At that moment, I wished to die,” he said. “It was a catastrophe.” > > \ > > I saw the injured people on the street, covered in blood, staggering, screaming, shouting, ‘Help me! Help me!’ but we could not get out and help them because we would be killed." > > At one point, he looked out and saw a cousin in the street; he had been wounded. “I could not do anything for him, I could not move,” Ghanim said. “He died. There was no mercy.” > > \ > > \*\*“I think if the Americans let us treat the injured, even in the streets,” he said, “we could have saved hundreds.” \*\* (my bolding) ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/34 "2004-11-15T22:13:46Z")
[This](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=253504) AP Story has a different take on the Red Crescent story: > [@](#): > > A convoy of ambulances and relief supplies trying to enter Fallujah was forced to turn back because the fighting made it too dangerous, the head of the Iraqi Red Crescent said. The Red Crescent and Red Cross have been unable to gain access to people inside Fallujah during more than a week of violence. > > … > > Civilians seeking medical care were told through loudspeakers and leaflets to contact U.S. troops. > > In Geneva, the Baghdad spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross, Ahmed Rawi, said Monday an Iraqi Red Crescent convoy of four ambulances and four trucks carrying supplies reached Fallujah General Hospital on the city’s outskirts, but was unable to go further. > > Ismail al-Haqi, director of the Iraqi Red Crescent Society, said he had decided it was too dangerous for the convoy to proceed into the city. > > “I can’t sacrifice the lives of the volunteers; it is very dangerous to go inside Fallujah now and we preferred not to enter,” al-Haqi said. > > He denied an earlier statement by the Red Crescent that U.S. forces and Iraqi officials turned back the convoy. So the director of the Iraqi Red Crescent Society is denying a statement by the Red Crescent itself? I guess things are a little confused there right now. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/35 "2004-11-15T22:22:44Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > So the director of the Iraqi Red Crescent Society is denying a statement by the Red Crescent itself? I guess things are a little confused there right now. Thanks for the cites btw. Kind of what I figured…i.e. its a confused situation, and that its too dangerous to allow such relief to simply go in at the time (and probably still). It makes sense if you think about it…unless your baseline assumption is that the US WANTS people to starve and suffer, and WANTS to prevent relief from getting into Fallujah. I had to figure that if the Red Cross/Red Crescent were wary of simply being in Iraq (wasn’t the Red Cross talking about pulling completely out of Iraq a few months ago? Or was that another organization?) that they would be skitish also of going into a hot war zone like Fallujah as well. And I’m sure the US military was wary of letting them in when they could be attacked mistakenly (or intentionally). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/36 "2004-11-15T22:26:02Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > [This](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=253504) AP Story has a different take on the Red Crescent story: > > So the director of the Iraqi Red Crescent Society is denying a statement by the Red Crescent itself? I guess things are a little confused there right now. Politics. If he ever wants to get in there, he’s not going to get very far blaming America. Plus, there is a grain of truth. I bet that there are volunteers there, and that htose volunteers are ready and willing to go in and risk their lives to deliver the aid, but the RC isn’t willing to lose their volunteers. The US Army has a so-so record of humanitarian relief efforts, but I doubt they have the medical capability to take care of the number of injured that we’re seeing without putting up a field hospital. (paging Alan Alda) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/37 "2004-11-15T22:38:10Z")
_Clear the battlefield and let me see all the profit from our victory_ – Emerson, Lake, and Palmer ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/38 "2004-11-16T06:16:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As to another ‘horrifying atrocity’ for the US in the eyes of the world, the world (and you) needs to get a grip if anything we’ve done in Iraq (including Abu Ghraib) was a ‘horrifying autrocity’. Your ability to ignore the world’s dim perception of our nation is horrifyingly obstinate. > [@xtisme](#): > > This is not to give such incidents a pass or wave them off…but in the ‘horrifying autrocity’ department the US is clearly second string. _Translation:_ “Hey, we’re still not as bad as Saddam! When are they going to realize this and start strewing rose pedals in our path already?” Going from “All men are created equal” to “We’re still second-stringers in atrocities” is _not_ something I want to cheer about… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/39 "2004-11-16T16:51:15Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Your ability to ignore the world’s dim perception of our nation is horrifyingly obstinate. And your ability to take every slightest wrong doing by the US and magnify it into ‘horrifying autrocity’ is actually quite sad. Ever heard the one about the boy who cried wolf? Think about it in the context of your myriad rant type threads. > [@rjung](#): > > Translation: “Hey, we’re still not as bad as Saddam! When are they going to realize this and start strewing rose pedals in our path already?” Has nothing to do with Saddam. We aren’t even in his same league. You seriously need to get some perspective. > [@rjung](#): > > Going from “All men are created equal” to “We’re still second-stringers in atrocities” is not something I want to cheer about… And a one, and a two and a three…spin spin spin… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828/40 "2004-11-16T18:05:21Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And your ability to take every slightest wrong doing by the US and magnify it into ‘horrifying atrocity’ is actually quite sad. Ever heard the one about the boy who cried wolf? Think about it in the context of your myriad rant type threads. Horrifying attrocity or not, we’re the ones standing in the spotlight. Whatever we do is magnified a thousand times, because we’re the Leaders of the Free World and Defenders of Democracy and Humanity and The Only Superpower Capable of Doing These Things. It’s our spotlight. We have to be careful in what we do. You can get away with a lot more when people think you’re already questionable - when you’re trying to advertise yourself as the One True Right and Valiant Defender Against Evil, and you do some of the dumbass shit we’ve done, of course you’re going to get called on it. The world doesn’t call on every terrorist execution because THEY’RE THE BAD GUYS. They are _expected_ to do such things, so when they do, it isn’t a surprise. The reason they are so much more critical of us is that WE’RE THE GOOD GUYS. When the good guy does something wrong, it gets noticed. You can’t fail to understand that basic reality. > [@](#): > > Has nothing to do with Saddam. We aren’t even in his same league. You seriously need to get some perspective. Supplying weapons and technology to mass murderer = OK? What a sad world, when the “good guys” are taking out the mass murderers they supported in power, and take out 150,000 civilians along with him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-postmortem/274828.md?page=3)