# Fallujah: What's going to happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2004, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823 "2004-11-09T11:30:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/41 "2004-11-10T13:53:02Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The thing is people talk about this as if there is a way of not attacking the city, but thats rubbish, a city packed with insurgents and terrorists is just an open invitation for an invasion. > > And about Riverbend, of course she’s going to complain, she’s Iraqi and would naturally dislike the fact her country has been invaded and occupied on a flimsy pretext. But the fact of the matter is, theres no viable alternative in dealing with terrorists who have no centralised command structure, no proper manifesto in dealing with post occupation Iraq, nothing, its just violence for the sake of violence and there is no level in which they would stop at to get maximum coverage from the world press, and I’ve just heard the PM’s cousins have been abducted. > > A democratic and secular (somewhat) state within a region which has not experienced such levels of freedom before would be a deathknell for any hardcore Islamists within the region, this is why they fight they fight to keep their power and maintain the climate of fear as to keep their subject people in line. > > Can you see the problem here? I wonder whats shes got to say about that, or anything which is remotely terrorist like. The thing is, its good for her to complain etc, but she doesn’t accept the fact that their isn’t any viable alternative. If she wasn’t Iraq she’d be probably wearing ‘meat is murder’ and protesting for a free Palestine, her viewpoint is biased. > > You take someone from Korea, or Japan and see if they loved being occupied by American troops, of course they didn’t but in the long term interests they knew they either had to work with them, and slowly get their country back in a much better shaped albeit altered or destroy everything in order to get them out. I would have been more impressed with the ‘caring’ invasion of the city if refugee camps had been set up to handle those who couldn’t just up and go. Doing nothing is preferable to doing something counter-productive and I don’t see that destroying a city, killing another bunch of civilians, alienating the Sunni’s, boosting insurgent recruitment and encouraging insurgents to spread the insurgency is helping in any way. There is not a finite number of insurgents and they can base themselves wherever they want. Such as Fallujah once the US forces withdraw again or run off to play whack-a-mole with insurgents in another city. It’s just playing into their hands. That the US Army is great and killing people and breaking things is not in dispute. They can bomb, shell and mortar every building they’re fired upon from until there is no resistance left but it will be the very definition of a phyrric political victory. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/42 "2004-11-10T14:54:49Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The thing is people talk about this as if there is a way of not attacking the city, but thats rubbish, a city packed with insurgents and terrorists is just an open invitation for an invasion. “Packed”? Well if the majority of the 250,000 inhabitants really are hardened Islamist terrorists we might as well give up right now IIRC there were people advising, and within, the US military who advised against the original disastrous assault and put forward alternative strategies – only to be blocked at the time by the Neo-cons [this is the only reference I can find at the mo - I can’t bothered to work up any Google-Fu - sorry it’s a bit crap](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=576042) > [@](#): > > Warnings by the US military commander of last April’s operation in Fallujah on the consequences of attacking the city were ignored by the Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, and not passed to President George Bush, an American newspaper has claimed. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And about Riverbend, of course she’s going to complain, she’s Iraqi Ah yes, things would be going swimmingly in Iraq, if only it wasn’t for those pesky Iraqis getting in the way! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/43 "2004-11-10T15:11:45Z")
I find the question of established refugee camps interesting, if only because it makes me feel such an utter chucklewit for not having thought of it. Just yesterday, I heard a reporter on NPR being questioned on the civilian residents of Fallujah, where did they go, those who could leave. To Baghdad, was the answer or to relatives houses in the surrounding countryside. Does anyone know? The obvious answer must be, simply _must_ be, that we knew we were going to attack Fallujah for weeks, therefore we had adequate facilities available for all who wanted to escape, huge tent cities set up in a safe zone, close enough for people to walk to. Stocked with food, medicine, sanitary facilities, beds, tents, all the rough necessary. Because, after all, we were the one’s deciding when this jolly little show should begin, we could determine when conditions were satisfactory. So surely, _surely_, these provisions were made far in advance of the marching orders? Surely we are not so blindly cruel as to cast these people out to make their own way? We are not monsters, after all. We are not fools, who could not forsee that failing to provide for them would make thousands upon thousands of brand new committed enemies? Someone please tell me this is so, that we made ample provision for the homeless we have created? I get so little good news, throw me this sop, tell me we are not entirely braindead and hopelessly cruel. Tell me the pictures will be flowing out of CNN today, pictures of vast refugee camps full of displaced persons, cared for humanely and decently by the God-fearing Americans, who are winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Tell me soon, before I start screaming… ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/44 "2004-11-10T15:34:54Z")
In other news, the National Strategic Reserve Stockpile of Melodramatic Hyperbole was depeleted today. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/45 "2004-11-10T15:42:13Z")
Melodramatic hyperbole about Iraq, **Brutus**? [Surely not!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283398) But **elucidator** , why should we provide any kind of basic provision for a city full of terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/46 "2004-11-10T15:44:25Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > In other news, the National Strategic Reserve Stockpile of Melodramatic Hyperbole was depeleted today. Compassionate Conservatism in action. Heaven forbid we make the slightest effort to actually mitigate the consequences of our own choice of actions so as, work with me on this one, not piss people off even more and create more terrorists. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/47 "2004-11-10T15:45:26Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > A democratic and secular (somewhat) state within a region which has not experienced such levels of freedom before would be a deathknell for any hardcore Islamists within the region, this is why they fight they fight to keep their power and maintain the climate of fear as to keep their subject people in line. I’m not so sure about this. If it is an Imposed democratic state would they see it as legitimate? Could this not be used as a rally point? I seriously believe there are those average citizens in that region who would rather be ruled by a dictator than see total freedom. Remember it was only 25 years ago that a secular state with all that Western freedom was overthrown by an Islamic religious movement. Besides, is it possible that the Insurgency is what many Iraqis want? That they would prefer to chose a bad government themselves rather than have one thrust upon them? Hard to imagine from our point of view but it is possible. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/48 "2004-11-10T15:50:18Z")
Ah, good, **Brutus** is here, the maestro of the snarky one-liner! He’ll have the answer, good ol’ hard-headed, realistic **Brutus**. Not for him the hysterical emotions of wimpy liberals, nosir! He’s got the answer, haven’t you, **Brutus**? Got the facts and pictures at your fingertips, don’t you, lad? Please share. Show us the photos of the vast refugee camps, the happy children at play, the Marine bending to offer a Hershey bar to a refugee child. Must be the liberal media, that must be why I can’t seem to find any references to such camps, which is odd, considering that they must contain nearly 100,000 people. Quite a lot of people, wouldn’t you agree, friend **Brutus**? Actually, please do. I would much prefer to be wrong on this one, this is simply to awful, too stupid, too utterly ham-fisted and shit-witted. I’ve got plenty of ammo, I don’t need this. And I don’t want to think this, I really don’t. Please show me this isn’t so, **Brutus**. We’re counting on you! ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/49 "2004-11-10T15:51:33Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Melodramatic hyperbole about Iraq, **Brutus**? [Surely not!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283398) > > But **elucidator** , why should we provide any kind of basic provision for a city full of terrorists? Absolutely. Bombing’s just too good for them. But seriously - I don’t understand why we can’t seem to miss any opportunity to make a bad situation worse. What arguments are there for not providing safe zones to encourage civilians to leave the area? The last thing we need is more shots of dead children being dragged from the rubble and we saw plenty of that after the last assault. It just seems a sensible thing to do, something that might give substance to the pretence that we care about civilian casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/50 "2004-11-10T15:53:38Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Melodramatic hyperbole about Iraq, **Brutus**? [Surely not!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283398) It is unbecoming to be constantly pimping a thread. I think we all see it in GD, no need to advertise. > [@tagos](#): > > Compassionate Conservatism in action. Heaven forbid we make the slightest effort to actually mitigate the consequences of our own choice of actions so as, work with me on this one, not piss people off even more and create more terrorists. [If only the US Armed Forces](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2004/n11092004_2004110905.html) had the foresight of you and **elucidator** …Golly gosh gee, if _only_… ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/51 "2004-11-10T16:04:27Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > I’m not so sure about this. If it is an Imposed democratic state would they see it as legitimate? Could this not be used as a rally point? > > I seriously believe there are those average citizens in that region who would rather be ruled by a dictator than see total freedom. Remember it was only 25 years ago that a secular state with all that Western freedom was overthrown by an Islamic religious movement. > > Besides, is it possible that the Insurgency is what many Iraqis want? That they would prefer to chose a bad government themselves rather than have one thrust upon them? > Hard to imagine from our point of view but it is possible. I’m sorry - what overthrow are you referring to? Iran? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/52 "2004-11-10T16:12:05Z")
Ah, splendid! They “stand ready”! That certainly settles that! They go on to emphasize that there is no “humanitarian crisis”! Goody! But still…a bit odd, don’t you think? Usually, in situations like this, there are reports from within these camps, makes excellent propaganda, how well the people are being treated, that sort of thing. > [@](#): > > …and that humanitarian assistance centers in bordering Jordan and Kuwait are staffed, equipped and poised to respond and assist in any humanitarian situation… Jordan? Kuwait? Isn’t that a bit far? And note: they are “poised” to respond, which would indicate, would it not, that they are not actually on the scene, but at some considerable remove. And they are poised to respond? One would think they would have already responded, given that they’ve had weeks to prepare. > [@](#): > > Though many residents have fled Fallujah, officials said most have temporary arrangements. “Initial reports indicate that these individuals are doing well, and are either staying with relatives or making use of public buildings or shelters until operations are complete.” Ah, excellent! They are staying with relatives! But where? Did they walk there, or does this only include such persons who have cars? And “making use of public buildings or shelters”? Surely not public buildings and shelters _within_ Fallujah? What would they gain from moving from target to target? A bit short of complete reassurance, I fear. Keeping in mind that I’m a hysterical and emotional lefty, and not gifted with the hard-headed realism of friend **Brutus** , who suffers no such qualms. Or any at all, it would appear. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/53 "2004-11-10T16:12:30Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > It is unbecoming to be constantly pimping a thread. I think we all see it in GD, no need to advertise. > > [If only the US Armed Forces](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2004/n11092004_2004110905.html) had the foresight of you and **elucidator** …Golly gosh gee, if _only_… Your sarcasm would be so much more cutting if your links actually supported it. As reading your own cites seems beyond your capacity: > [@](#): > > “The Iraqi government, in coordination with MNFI, stands ready to coordinate and resolve any large-scale humanitarian issues that might arise during and after operations in Fallujah and other locations,” military officials said in press statement issued today. > [@](#): > > humanitarian assistance centers \*\*in bordering Jordan and Kuwait \*\* are staffed, equipped and poised to respond and assist in any humanitarian situation. As this link is explicitly referring to a humanitarian crisis that arises during and after the assault it is of no relevance. Our foresight stands unchallenged. Besides this is based purely on > [@](#): > > a Multinational Force Iraq news release and without an independent confirmation isn’t an acceptable cite. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/54 "2004-11-10T16:13:30Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > I seriously believe there are those average citizens in that region who would rather be ruled by a dictator than see total freedom. Remember it was only 25 years ago that a secular state with all that Western freedom was overthrown by an Islamic religious movement. > . Huh??? Which country are you refering to? I’m assuming you’re thinking about Iran, but if you’re believing that Iran was “a secular state with all that western freedom”, you’re seriously mistaken. Iran under the Shah was like, say, Pinochet’s Chile, not like a westerm democracy. Still assuming that you’re refering to Iran, why do you think the Iranian people were so eager to get rid of the Shah? Because they had too much “western freedoms” under his rule? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/55 "2004-11-10T16:19:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah, excellent! They are staying with relatives! But where? Did they walk there, or does this only include such persons who have cars? And “making use of public buildings or shelters”? Surely not public buildings and shelters _within_ Fallujah? What would they gain from moving from target to target? > . According to what I read here and there, I understand that people who stayed in Fallujah were mostly people who had no other place to stay. Those who left were mostly people who had relatives elsewhere or were wealthy enough. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/56 "2004-11-10T16:21:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah, splendid! They “stand ready”! That certainly settles that! They go on to emphasize that there is no “humanitarian crisis”! Goody!.. Damnit, I forgot to factor in the **elucidator constant** : **elucidator** + no plans for refugees=Paragraphs of hyperbole. Now let’s see the **elucidator constant** at work: **elucidator** + plans for refugees=Paragraphs of hyperbole. See? No change, no matter what reality may be. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/57 "2004-11-10T16:22:33Z")
It all seems to be going swimmingly. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/3999899.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3999899.stm) This will play well on US TV but IRL it’s counterproductive and wasteful. There’s not a lot anybody can do now IMO. The horse has bolted and Iraq’s fucked for the foreseeable future. All these lovely pie in the sky easy concepts of freedom and democracy are bollocks in the extreme but will keep the domestic grass chewing population quiet for a while, hell I’m sure lots of people already think it’s a complete success and people are really happy in Iraq thanks to Dubya. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/58 "2004-11-10T16:25:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …we knew we were going to attack Fallujah for weeks, therefore we had adequate facilities available for all who wanted to escape, huge tent cities set up in a safe zone… Totally moot - There aren’t any safe zones - none - Setting up refugee camps is a huge logistical task in a country where basic infrastructure tasks aren’t getting done - who’s going to build them? The contractors leaving in droves for fear of kidnapping? - Who will police them to stop the insurgents using them as bases? The troops the US doesn’t seem to have enough of? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/59 "2004-11-10T16:33:48Z")
**Capt.** , your point escapes me. Because the task is daunting, it shouldn’t be attempted? Not trying to snark, but, in truth, your post could be misinterpreted. I can’t tell if you mean to say “It couldn’t be done, so to hell with it” or “It couldn’t be done, but at least they should have tried.” Advise. And **Brutus** , your contempt for me and my opinions is not news, there could hardly be anyone familiar with these boards who doesn’t already know that. Is that all you have to offer? Couldn’t you at least jump up and down and scream “Mandate! Mandate, you losers!”, if only for the sake of variety? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/60 "2004-11-10T16:34:04Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > Totally moot > > - There aren’t any safe zones - none > - Setting up refugee camps is a huge logistical task in a country where basic infrastructure tasks aren’t getting done > - who’s going to build them? The contractors leaving in droves for fear of kidnapping? > - Who will police them to stop the insurgents using them as bases? The troops the US doesn’t seem to have enough of? Then make ‘safe zones’. They’ve done it for themselves. If there aren’t enough troops, send more. If there aren’t troops to send, don’t go ahead and do something in a way that’s guaranteed to make things worse. At least try - setting up and policing facilities for 10,000 people shouldn’t be beyond the capacity of the world hyper-power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823.md?page=4)