# Fallujah: What's going to happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2004, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823 "2004-11-09T11:30:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/61 "2004-11-10T17:05:14Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Then make ‘safe zones’. They’ve done it for themselves. Not really - soft targets are hit most often, but hard “secure” targets are still being hit. > [@](#): > > If there aren’t enough troops, send more. If they had 'em, they’ed send 'em (not patch holes with the Black Watch, extend TODs etc) > [@](#): > > If there aren’t troops to send, don’t go ahead and do something in a way that’s guaranteed to make things worse. No shit! > [@](#): > > At least try - setting up and policing facilities for 10,000 people shouldn’t be beyond the capacity of the world hyper-power. We’re seeing the limits of that power - or at least it’s application. Power to win any battle militarily, no idea or capability to deal with problems that don’t have the decency to present themselves as the conventional military enemy the US has been training to face all these years (and now doesn’t exist anymore) It only has a hammer - so it looks for nails to hit, present it with a screw and it’s (ehem) screwed – in short, it’s muscle-bound ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/62 "2004-11-10T17:07:31Z")
Slaughterhouse found in Fallujah > [@](#): > > “We have found hostage slaughterhouses in Fallujah that were used by these people and the black clothing that they used to wear to identify themselves, hundreds of CDs and whole records with names of hostages,” the general said at a military camp near Fallujah. And just because I know how much you all love FOX I’m going to link to it: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285654&page=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285654&page=2) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/63 "2004-11-10T17:12:15Z")
I think [this](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138150,00.html) is the link you want Rune. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/64 "2004-11-10T17:12:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Capt.** , your point escapes me. Because the task is daunting, it shouldn’t be attempted? Not trying to snark, but, in truth, your post could be misinterpreted. I can’t tell if you mean to say “It couldn’t be done, so to hell with it” or “It couldn’t be done, but at least they should have tried.” Advise. I’m not saying it’s daunting, i’m saying it’s impossible. trying it would kill more civilians than letting them fend for themselves ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/65 "2004-11-10T17:13:10Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > We’re seeing the limits of that power - or at least it’s application. Power to win any battle militarily, no idea or capability to deal with problems that don’t have the decency to present themselves as the conventional military enemy the US has been training to face all these years (and now doesn’t exist anymore) > It only has a hammer - so it looks for nails to hit, present it with a screw and it’s (ehem) screwed > – in short, it’s muscle-bound The Green Zone is pretty safe. A big camp in the middle of the desert beyond mortar range of cover, controlled entrance and exits, run by the thousands of Iraqi security forces we’ve supposedly been training, wouldn’t seem to be too much effort. But you are right - we’re seeing the US Army up against the political limitations imposed on it. The Rumsfeld, two men and a dog, approach and the delusion of happy, welcoming Iraqi’s. If the US hasn’t the manpower then it should draft some or make whatevr compromises, concessions and promises it needs to to get international support. Bush’s approach - stamping his tiny feet and demanding support of right isn’t going to cut it. Admitting he’s made a gigantic error and humbly asking for help might. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/66 "2004-11-10T17:15:24Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Slaughterhouse found in Fallujah > > And just because I know how much you all love FOX I’m going to link to it: > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285654&page=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285654&page=2) I’m certainly not disputing these people need dealing with. I’m opposed to making things worse for the sake of doing something - anything! ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/67 "2004-11-10T17:37:16Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > “Packed”? Well if the majority of the 250,000 inhabitants really are hardened Islamist terrorists we might as well give up right now > IIRC there were people advising, and within, the US military who advised against the original disastrous assault and put forward alternative strategies – only to be blocked at the time by the Neo-cons > [this is the only reference I can find at the mo - I can’t bothered to work up any Google-Fu - sorry it’s a bit crap](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=576042) > > Ah yes, things would be going swimmingly in Iraq, if only it wasn’t for those pesky Iraqis getting in the way! Nice try, shes an Iraqi living under occupation is what I said. Nice to try and take a spin on things. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/68 "2004-11-10T17:43:09Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The Green Zone is pretty safe. A big camp in the middle of the desert beyond mortar range of cover, controlled entrance and exits, run by the thousands of Iraqi security forces we’ve supposedly been training, wouldn’t seem to be too much effort. “green zone” + attack gives 64,800 hits on Google [Fox (to follow fashion)](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135391,00.html) > [@](#): > > Iraq — Insurgents struck deep inside Baghdad’s heavily fortified Green Zone (search) on Thursday, setting off bombs at a market and a popular cafe that killed at least six people — including four Americans — and wounded 20 others in the compound housing foreign embassies and Iraqi government offices. That’s not the point though - set up a camp for 10,000 – say 100,000 turn up, 1,000 of which are bad guys intent on causing touble - people stampede for limited resources, kids get crushed etc. Your poorly trained Iraqi security goons look on - then sell their firearms to the highest bidder. I can see 1001 ways it would go tits-up ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/69 "2004-11-10T17:56:38Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Nice try, shes an Iraqi living under occupation is what I said. Nice to try and take a spin on things. Ha! I was thinking of it as more of a “Cheap shot” rather than “spin” But I hope you take my point – if any kind of democracy is to be built in Iraq it needs to include people like Riverbend - whether you think she’s probably a hairy-legged Guardian reader type or not - it’s got to include just about everyone except the total loonies ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/70 "2004-11-10T18:05:14Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Huh??? Which country are you refering to? I’m assuming you’re thinking about Iran, but if you’re believing that Iran was “a secular state with all that western freedom”, you’re seriously mistaken. Iran under the Shah was like, say, Pinochet’s Chile, not like a westerm democracy. > > Still assuming that you’re refering to Iran, why do you think the Iranian people were so eager to get rid of the Shah? Because they had too much “western freedoms” under his rule? Sorry I wasn’t exactly clear. Yes I referred to Iran, and what I was refering to was not just the fact the Shah was overthrown but that the entire society went from a Western lifestyle to a fundementalist religious state with quite a bit of popular backing. It is not like every Iranian was unaware of what they were replacing the government with. The Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini was pretty straightforward as to what sort of society he envisioned. The people that over threw the Shah were also out to overthrow Western cultural influence. The Shah was no democratic leader and there were great human rights abuses under his rule. I did not mean to imply that Iran was the ideal of a Western democracy. But rather a Westernized nation . The images of Iran in the sixties and early seventies show a society that by all looks had all of the trappings of a Western society. It is one thing to reject the leadership as courrupt, it is another to also quickly overthrow the society as a whole and opt for a traditionalist religious view. If they overthrew for freedom why give up so much of it to strict religious doctrine? Maybe it wasn’t the freedom of a representative democracy they were after but the freedom to set up a theocracy. I seriously doubt that the reason people are flocking to the Terrorist cause is not because they lack a vote in a democratic nation. I just can’t see how an imposed democracy some how fixes the attitudes of those Muslims in the region so that they are in line with our views. . ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/71 "2004-11-10T20:29:57Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > [If only the US Armed Forces](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2004/n11092004_2004110905.html) had the foresight of you and **elucidator** …Golly gosh gee, if _only_… Let’s see, the U.S. Military says: > [@](#): > > there is “no humanitarian crisis at this time.” while a source i quoted previously, an Iraqi doctor working in Fallujah, says: > [@](#): > > There is a health crisis in Fallujah. I no longer trust a single word the US Government says. They have as much standing as the famed Baghdad Bob, former Iraqi Information Minister. I’m not even trusting the “liberal” US media to give me accurate information on Iraq, i find myself trusting more in non-US news sources, Australia, UK, etc. Thanks be to the internet. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/72 "2004-11-11T11:33:34Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Sorry I wasn’t exactly clear. Yes I referred to Iran, and what I was refering to was not just the fact the Shah was overthrown but that the entire society went from a Western lifestyle to a fundementalist religious state with quite a bit of popular backing. > > It is not like every Iranian was unaware of what they were replacing the government with. The Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini was pretty straightforward as to what sort of society he envisioned. The people that over threw the Shah were also out to overthrow Western cultural influence. > > The Shah was no democratic leader and there were great human rights abuses under his rule. I did not mean to imply that Iran was the ideal of a Western democracy. But rather a Westernized nation . The images of Iran in the sixties and early seventies show a society that by all looks had all of the trappings of a Western society. > > It is one thing to reject the leadership as courrupt, it is another to also quickly overthrow the society as a whole and opt for a traditionalist religious view. > If they overthrew for freedom why give up so much of it to strict religious doctrine? Maybe it wasn’t the freedom of a representative democracy they were after but the freedom to set up a theocracy. > > I seriously doubt that the reason people are flocking to the Terrorist cause is not because they lack a vote in a democratic nation. I just can’t see how an imposed democracy some how fixes the attitudes of those Muslims in the region so that they are in line with our views. > > . I think you’re conflating the style and image of the ruler and the oil-enriched elite with the nature of the society at the time. It’s true that the Shah and his allies were struggling to modernise with what oil revenue they hadn’t pocketed or spent on armed forces but that was an internal conflict with traditional forces sharpened by repression and the perceived excesses of the regime. Iran was not a secular society - it was a traditional society with a modernising, autocratic and increasingly brutal elite. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/73 "2004-11-11T11:36:04Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > “green zone” + attack gives 64,800 hits on Google > [Fox (to follow fashion)](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135391,00.html) > That’s not the point though - set up a camp for 10,000 – say 100,000 turn up, 1,000 of which are bad guys intent on causing touble - people stampede for limited resources, kids get crushed etc. Your poorly trained Iraqi security goons look on - then sell their firearms to the highest bidder. I can see 1001 ways it would go tits-up And how many deaths? Handful. Google hit counting proves nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/74 "2004-11-11T13:35:34Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > And how many deaths? Handful. Google hit counting proves nothing. Googling and reading the first couple of pages of links proves to me at least that the US cannot guarantee security to Iraqis in a single square inch of Iraq - look at **Brutus** ’s link, > [@](#): > > humanitarian assistance centres in bordering Jordan and Kuwait are staffed, sounds like “we can’t control things in Iraq” to me. - look at whose family has just been kidnapped Handful of deaths? Take 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 _thousand_ people, hostile (this isn’t a picnic you’re taking them on - you’re flattening their houses and mosques - killing people they know), easily panicked (memories of Abu Ghraib are strong - they expect to be mistreated) Add a bunch of bad guys embedded in their midst, a few of them fanatics willing to kill themselves and as many civilians as possible just to create chaos. Try to police it all with too few troops (and low-grade, the best guys are off fighting) and/or a ragtag of Iraqis - poorly trained, very questionable loyalties (probably a few bad guys embedded there too, as has already happened) armed with guns and passes that will sell for more than anything you’re paying them to risk their lives. It only takes one guard to get killed and the rest get trigger-happy - every civilian approaching is a potential suicide bomber - every fight over a loaf of bread looks like the start of a riot Add terrible conditions - what are the chances of housing, feeding, treating unknown thousands of people when the track record with the existing electrical, sewage, phone, oil, medical systems have not been exactly great? Stand well back Hold enquiry into how this humanitarian diaster was allowed to happen - count the corpses and work out how many died of crush injuries and how many from gunshot. Find scapegoat Sounds like a plan to me ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/75 "2004-11-11T13:55:23Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > Sounds like a plan to me And just leaving those with nowhere to go to be blown to propaganda pieces is better than trying to do something? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/76 "2004-11-11T14:38:23Z")
[http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20041111/ap\_on\_re\_mi\_ea/iraq\_041111084708](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20041111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_041111084708) And this just in… > [@](#): > > An estimated 600 insurgents have been killed since the start of the battle of Fallujah on Monday night, the U.S. military said Thursday. > > The estimated death toll for the three and a half-day U.S. onslaught would be a substantial number of the 1,200 to 3,000 guerrillas that were thought to be holed up in the city… 1,200 to 3,000? Wasn’t it 5,000 to 6,000 just a couple days ago? Has there been a new! improved! census of Fallujah insurgents just recently? Or might it be, as I suspect darkly, that the numbers shift according to whatever looks more plausible when victory is declared? Viet Nam all over again, with sand and camels rather than rice paddies and water buffalo. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/77 "2004-11-11T14:39:31Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > And just leaving those with nowhere to go to be blown to propaganda pieces is better than trying to do something? Pretty much That’s how “lesser of two evils” works - you’re still left with an evil ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/78 "2004-11-11T15:44:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20041111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_041111084708) > > And this just in… > > 1,200 to 3,000? Wasn’t it 5,000 to 6,000 just a couple days ago? Has there been a new! improved! census of Fallujah insurgents just recently? Or might it be, as I suspect darkly, that the numbers shift according to whatever looks more plausible when victory is declared? > > Viet Nam all over again, with sand and camels rather than rice paddies and water buffalo. You can be certain, just like in 'Nam, any dead male between 13 and 65 will be counted as an insurgent by the military. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/79 "2004-11-11T15:46:29Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > Pretty much > > That’s how “lesser of two evils” works - you’re still left with an evil Well, trying to protect people in camps rather than shelling them seems the lesser evil to me and it at least shows we care enough to make some kind of effort. Or have we given up on this whole hearts and minds thing? ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823/80 "2004-11-14T00:28:24Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > … have we given up on this whole hearts and minds thing? So when did we _start_ on “hearts and minds”? “Hearts and minds” is a phrase used by the press, including the US press - but I’ve seen no evidence of “H&M” thinking in US military planning or training - in this conflict or any other - that’s my point about the US only having hammer, a damn good hammer, but useless in situations that call for a screwdriver (force, but applied with subtlety) The “Hearts and minds” phrase comes originally from British campaigns in Malaya IIRC - where it was used with success - and combined with hard lessons learned in N. Ireland has become an important part of UK military thinking (well, when it _is_ thinking) [(" By respecting the Arabs’ devotion to Islam, SAS soldiers gained a lot of respect from the Arabs they encountered")](http://britains-smallwars.com/Desert_song/Hearts.htm) Contrast this with US tactics, seemly learned from the Israelis (who have arguably been less successful in dealing with unrest though obviously in different circumstances)[“With a heavy dose of fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects, I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them.” "“You have to understand the Arab mind… …The only thing they understand is force”](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1207-06.htm) This unwillingness to take a H&M approach, (or take any advice from the British military whilst running to the Israeli “experts” for advice), seems to have been a cause of tension in the “coalition of the willing” from the start - now members of the Black Watch are starting to get killed in an area stirred up by previous US actions, while having to operate under US rules of engagement, that tension has increased. > [@](#): > > Well, trying to protect people in camps rather than shelling them seems the lesser evil “Trying” isn’t good enough - you have to be able to deliver - and IMHO the coalition forces are in no position to deliver protection to friendly - let alone hostile civilians. Even if you think my scenarios for how things would play out in the camps are wildly overblown I _still_ think the point is moot. How do you get people into the camps in the first place? “Hello, we’re the US military; you may remember us from such shows as “Abu Ghraib - we torture women and children” on Al Jazera.” “We’d like you to get on these old buses we’ve hired so we can we can _ **concentrate** _ you in a _ **camp** _ for a while (we tried to build wooden huts to fit in with the barbed wire and watch-towers, cos we knew how good that would look on TV, particularly in the Muslim world - but you’re going to have to put up with tents, bit chilly I’m afraid)” Where do you put the pick up points and how do you protect the drivers? Do you expect people to walk there? Where do you site the camp? - Nowhere is secure within Iraq (remember that Abu Ghraib started to come under serious attack from the outside at one point as the rumours started to grow among the locals - and that’s a fortified prison) Gonna put it in the Kurdish area? or outside Iraq? - that’s like putting out a fire by kicking it all over the forest. and so on and so on… And before this thread sinks back into the mists of time I’ll address this:- > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ahh Riverbend… …the same person who writes about the daily abuses of the Americans, but yet fails to mention with the same ferocity insurgent atrocities. Makes ya think, don’t it? Makes me think you haven’t read her stuff > [@](#): > > A few days ago, some 40 children were blown to pieces while they were gathering candy from American soldiers at the opening of a sewage treatment plant… > (snip) > …I the people who arranged the explosions burn within the far-reaches of hell. (Ok, she’s missed out a word or two but her meaning is clear) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fallujah-whats-going-to-happen/273823.md?page=5)