I would have been more impressed with the ‘caring’ invasion of the city if refugee camps had been set up to handle those who couldn’t just up and go.
Doing nothing is preferable to doing something counter-productive and I don’t see that destroying a city, killing another bunch of civilians, alienating the Sunni’s, boosting insurgent recruitment and encouraging insurgents to spread the insurgency is helping in any way.
There is not a finite number of insurgents and they can base themselves wherever they want. Such as Fallujah once the US forces withdraw again or run off to play whack-a-mole with insurgents in another city. It’s just playing into their hands.
That the US Army is great and killing people and breaking things is not in dispute. They can bomb, shell and mortar every building they’re fired upon from until there is no resistance left but it will be the very definition of a phyrric political victory.
I find the question of established refugee camps interesting, if only because it makes me feel such an utter chucklewit for not having thought of it. Just yesterday, I heard a reporter on NPR being questioned on the civilian residents of Fallujah, where did they go, those who could leave. To Baghdad, was the answer or to relatives houses in the surrounding countryside.
Does anyone know? The obvious answer must be, simply must be, that we knew we were going to attack Fallujah for weeks, therefore we had adequate facilities available for all who wanted to escape, huge tent cities set up in a safe zone, close enough for people to walk to. Stocked with food, medicine, sanitary facilities, beds, tents, all the rough necessary. Because, after all, we were the one’s deciding when this jolly little show should begin, we could determine when conditions were satisfactory.
So surely, surely, these provisions were made far in advance of the marching orders? Surely we are not so blindly cruel as to cast these people out to make their own way? We are not monsters, after all. We are not fools, who could not forsee that failing to provide for them would make thousands upon thousands of brand new committed enemies?
Someone please tell me this is so, that we made ample provision for the homeless we have created? I get so little good news, throw me this sop, tell me we are not entirely braindead and hopelessly cruel. Tell me the pictures will be flowing out of CNN today, pictures of vast refugee camps full of displaced persons, cared for humanely and decently by the God-fearing Americans, who are winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Tell me soon, before I start screaming…
Compassionate Conservatism in action. Heaven forbid we make the slightest effort to actually mitigate the consequences of our own choice of actions so as, work with me on this one, not piss people off even more and create more terrorists. :rolleyes:
I’m not so sure about this. If it is an Imposed democratic state would they see it as legitimate? Could this not be used as a rally point?
I seriously believe there are those average citizens in that region who would rather be ruled by a dictator than see total freedom. Remember it was only 25 years ago that a secular state with all that Western freedom was overthrown by an Islamic religious movement.
Besides, is it possible that the Insurgency is what many Iraqis want? That they would prefer to chose a bad government themselves rather than have one thrust upon them?
Hard to imagine from our point of view but it is possible.
Ah, good, Brutus is here, the maestro of the snarky one-liner! He’ll have the answer, good ol’ hard-headed, realistic Brutus. Not for him the hysterical emotions of wimpy liberals, nosir! He’s got the answer, haven’t you, Brutus?
Got the facts and pictures at your fingertips, don’t you, lad? Please share. Show us the photos of the vast refugee camps, the happy children at play, the Marine bending to offer a Hershey bar to a refugee child. Must be the liberal media, that must be why I can’t seem to find any references to such camps, which is odd, considering that they must contain nearly 100,000 people. Quite a lot of people, wouldn’t you agree, friend Brutus?
Actually, please do. I would much prefer to be wrong on this one, this is simply to awful, too stupid, too utterly ham-fisted and shit-witted. I’ve got plenty of ammo, I don’t need this. And I don’t want to think this, I really don’t.
Please show me this isn’t so, Brutus. We’re counting on you!
But seriously - I don’t understand why we can’t seem to miss any opportunity to make a bad situation worse. What arguments are there for not providing safe zones to encourage civilians to leave the area?
The last thing we need is more shots of dead children being dragged from the rubble and we saw plenty of that after the last assault.
It just seems a sensible thing to do, something that might give substance to the pretence that we care about civilian casualties.
Ah, splendid! They “stand ready”! That certainly settles that! They go on to emphasize that there is no “humanitarian crisis”! Goody!
But still…a bit odd, don’t you think? Usually, in situations like this, there are reports from within these camps, makes excellent propaganda, how well the people are being treated, that sort of thing.
Jordan? Kuwait? Isn’t that a bit far? And note: they are “poised” to respond, which would indicate, would it not, that they are not actually on the scene, but at some considerable remove. And they are poised to respond? One would think they would have already responded, given that they’ve had weeks to prepare.
Ah, excellent! They are staying with relatives! But where? Did they walk there, or does this only include such persons who have cars? And “making use of public buildings or shelters”? Surely not public buildings and shelters within Fallujah? What would they gain from moving from target to target?
A bit short of complete reassurance, I fear. Keeping in mind that I’m a hysterical and emotional lefty, and not gifted with the hard-headed realism of friend Brutus, who suffers no such qualms. Or any at all, it would appear.
Your sarcasm would be so much more cutting if your links actually supported it.
As reading your own cites seems beyond your capacity:
As this link is explicitly referring to a humanitarian crisis that arises during and after the assault it is of no relevance. Our foresight stands unchallenged.
Besides this is based purely on
and without an independent confirmation isn’t an acceptable cite.
Huh??? Which country are you refering to? I’m assuming you’re thinking about Iran, but if you’re believing that Iran was “a secular state with all that western freedom”, you’re seriously mistaken. Iran under the Shah was like, say, Pinochet’s Chile, not like a westerm democracy.
Still assuming that you’re refering to Iran, why do you think the Iranian people were so eager to get rid of the Shah? Because they had too much “western freedoms” under his rule?
According to what I read here and there, I understand that people who stayed in Fallujah were mostly people who had no other place to stay. Those who left were mostly people who had relatives elsewhere or were wealthy enough.
This will play well on US TV but IRL it’s counterproductive and wasteful.
There’s not a lot anybody can do now IMO. The horse has bolted and Iraq’s fucked for the foreseeable future.
All these lovely pie in the sky easy concepts of freedom and democracy are bollocks in the extreme but will keep the domestic grass chewing population quiet for a while, hell I’m sure lots of people already think it’s a complete success and people are really happy in Iraq thanks to Dubya.
Capt., your point escapes me. Because the task is daunting, it shouldn’t be attempted? Not trying to snark, but, in truth, your post could be misinterpreted. I can’t tell if you mean to say “It couldn’t be done, so to hell with it” or “It couldn’t be done, but at least they should have tried.” Advise.
And Brutus, your contempt for me and my opinions is not news, there could hardly be anyone familiar with these boards who doesn’t already know that. Is that all you have to offer? Couldn’t you at least jump up and down and scream “Mandate! Mandate, you losers!”, if only for the sake of variety?
Then make ‘safe zones’. They’ve done it for themselves. If there aren’t enough troops, send more. If there aren’t troops to send, don’t go ahead and do something in a way that’s guaranteed to make things worse.
At least try - setting up and policing facilities for 10,000 people shouldn’t be beyond the capacity of the world hyper-power.