# False Rape Accusations Revisited **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227 "2006-08-03T18:43:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/81 "2006-08-04T18:24:58Z")
> [@psychloan](#): > > What article? Which statistics? And YOU accused ME of not reading? THIS article: > [@Marley23](#): > > [The Columbia Journalism Review](http://archives.cjr.org/year/97/6/rape.asp) In one of your posts, you used this quote: > [@](#): > > A survey of all the forcible rape complaints during a three-year period at two large Midwestern state universities found that 50 percent of the accusations were false. At each university, the complaints and investigations were the responsibility of a ranking female officer, and no complaint was declared false unless there was a recantation by the accuser. Fifty-three percent of the accusations were motivated by a need for an alibi; revenge was the motive for 44 percent.(5) My cite, which goes into a little more detail about the same numbers, includes the following comment from the author of the study: > [@](#): > > And some of the studies are obviously limited. Kanin of Purdue warned against reading too much into his examination of the small midwestern city: “Certainly our intent is not to suggest that the 41 percent incidence found here be extrapolated to other populations, particularly in light of our ignorance regarding the structural variables.” Are we clear now? > [@psychloan](#): > > What’s problematic about the delay in the Duke case is that the accuser apparently did not report any alleged rape until **after** she learned she was to be involuntarily committed. As I said earlier, I think the Duke case is a crock of shit. Since we’re agreed on that, perhaps we can quit relying on it for everything in this thread? There are situations in which reporting delays are problematic, but I don’t think they’re a problem in and of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![psychloan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@psychloan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychloan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/82 "2006-08-04T18:37:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And YOU accused ME of not reading?\*\* I don’t see why I should have to guess about what you are referring to. I’ve referred to statistics in more than one post in this thread. How hard would it be to refer to the “Columbia Article” or the “Kamin Study”? But to answer your question, no, there’s no particular reason. IIRC, my original point was, in substance, that there are a large number of false rape accusations. I was asked for references, which I provided. If you want to debate my original point, fine. But first tell me your position. > [@](#): > > As I said earlier, I think the Duke case is a crock of shit. Since we’re agreed on that, perhaps we can quit relying on it for everything in this thread? In a thread about false rape accusations, the Duke case is extremely apropos. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/83 "2006-08-04T18:48:46Z")
> [@psychloan](#): > > I don’t see why I should have to guess about what you are referring to. I’ve referred to statistics in more than one post in this thread. How hard would it be to refer to the “Columbia Article” or the “Kamin Study”? I’ve linked to one (1) article, and I thought it was very clear which study (posted by you) that it dealt with… Unless you’re just posting statistics without reading them, I don’t know why any guesswork was involved. > [@](#): > > IIRC, my original point was, in substance, that there are a large number of false rape accusations. I was asked for references, which I provided. But my cite demonstrated that some of your cites aren’t that reliable, and also addressed the point that it’s hard to come by unbiased stats on false rape reports in the first place. > [@](#): > > In a thread about false rape accusations, the Duke case is extremely apropos. That doesn’t mean it’s a good example for every point you want to illustrate. She made the rape report under suspicious circumstances, but it’s not the delay that makes them suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![psychloan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@psychloan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychloan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/84 "2006-08-04T18:55:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve linked to one (1) article,\*\* But you didn’t even refer to “the article I linked earlier” You simply said “that article.” > [@](#): > > But my cite demonstrated that some of your cites aren’t that reliable, and also addressed the point that it’s hard to come by unbiased stats on false rape reports in the first place. So do you dispute that there are large numbers of false rape allegations made? > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean it’s a good example for every point you want to illustrate. She made the rape report under suspicious circumstances, but it’s not the delay that makes them suspicious. So why not answer my question from before then?: I’ll repeat it: > [@](#): > > If it came out that the accuser called 911 and reported a rape 5 minutes before her encounter with the police, do you think that would help the prosecution’s case? ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/85 "2006-08-04T19:35:26Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Rape happens to be a crime which, barring the occasional videotape, often lacks convincing physical evidence proving or disproving. Sorry for the slight hijack: aren’t there forensic doctors / specialists who examine the victim for traces of rape afterwards? Do they conclusively offer proof that someone has or hasn’t been raped? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/86 "2006-08-04T19:51:07Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > Sorry for the slight hijack: aren’t there forensic doctors / specialists who examine the victim for traces of rape afterwards? Do they conclusively offer proof that someone has or hasn’t been raped? Conclusive proof in all cases? I doubt it. But if you think they can, let’s see a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Seller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Salt\_Seller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salt_Seller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/87 "2006-08-04T19:54:18Z")
For a group of such intelligent, ignorance-fighting people, I really am quite astounded at the level of casual misogyny and rape-culture apologetics on display here. In any thread that even remotely touches on this issue, the assumption seems to be that all women are liars, and if they did get raped, well, it was their fault. And yet you wonder why women might be reluctant to report. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/88 "2006-08-04T19:54:27Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > Sorry for the slight hijack: aren’t there forensic doctors / specialists who examine the victim for traces of rape afterwards? Do they conclusively offer proof that someone has or hasn’t been raped? There are, but the sorts of physical findings they could report would most likely be, at best, “consistent with” sexual assault, in most cases. I doubt anyone could turn those findings into _conclusive_ proof. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/89 "2006-08-04T20:05:13Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > Sorry for the slight hijack: aren’t there forensic doctors / specialists who examine the victim for traces of rape afterwards? Do they conclusively offer proof that someone has or hasn’t been raped? They can offer opinions, but seldom conclusive. There are three basic defenses to rape: 1. It never happened. 2. It happened, because she consented. 3. It happened, but some other dude did it. Forensic evidence and a rape exam can conclusively rebut the first defense, and now with DNA on the scene, are probative with respect to the third. But if the claim is that there was consensual sex, then the factor becomes what sort of bruising, tearing, or bleeding is observable. The worse the injuries are, the harder it is to claim consent. Even ordinary sexual intercourse can cause some minor chafing and bruising. Some couples like rougher sex, and that’s often the claim of an accused rapist using the consent defense to explain minor injuries. Obviously, the more serious the injuries, the weaker the “rough sex” explanation sounds. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/90 "2006-08-04T20:11:13Z")
> [@Salt Seller](#): > > For a group of such intelligent, ignorance-fighting people, I really am quite astounded at the level of casual misogyny and rape-culture apologetics on display here. In any thread that even remotely touches on this issue, the assumption seems to be that all women are liars, and if they did get raped, well, it was their fault. And yet you wonder why women might be reluctant to report. What thread are your reading? Certainly not this one. One poster is goig on about a high incidence of false rape reports, but even that poster isn’t saying “all women are liars” and he certainly isn’t saying “it was their fault”. Can you quote some of these posts that are leading you to your conclusions? I don’t see them. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/91 "2006-08-04T20:23:50Z")
Since you apparently are revisiting this thread, **Bricker** , could you confirm that the conclusion I eventually reached is correct? The point of your OP is that saying women never lie about rape is wrong? That’s it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/92 "2006-08-04T21:45:01Z")
And can you respond to my post #40, while you’re at it. I think I’m the only one, other than **Hamlet** , to address your assertion that any alleged rape that wasn’t filmed would end up being prosecuted just like the Duke case. ---
**Author:** ![Blanche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Blanche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blanche)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/93 "2006-08-04T22:01:13Z")
For every false rape accusation that gets reported to the authorities, there are probably dozens of cases where a woman tells people she was raped but never takes the step of making a false report to the police (probably because she knows investigation will prove her lie). I’ve seen so many people have their lives ruined because some spiteful or jealous bitch will start telling people she was raped just because she’s mad at somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/94 "2006-08-04T22:38:29Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Since you apparently are revisiting this thread, **Bricker** , could you confirm that the conclusion I eventually reached is correct? The point of your OP is that saying women never lie about rape is wrong? That’s it? One of my two points. But other than that, kinda sorta… yes. The problem is that no one really says, “Women never lie about rape.” But in a discussion, they are likely to say, “Why would she lie?” as though that’s a useful question to judge the truth of her complaint. So one of my two points was to say: “Why would she lie?” is not a useful question to ask to prove that she’s not lying. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/95 "2006-08-04T22:40:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > To flesh out what I asked rather cryptically, above: Can we really take the Durham case as an example of what typically happens in rape cases? I say no. This case was a national media circus, was highly racially charged, and involved a White DA up for election in an area with a large Black poopulation. I contend that we have to look much further than this case to find out what would have happened had the tape not existed. Fair enough. There’s no one-size fits-all answer. The Durham case merely shows what could have happened, not what inevitably would have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/96 "2006-08-04T23:04:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > One of my two points. > > But other than that, kinda sorta… yes. The problem is that no one really says, “Women never lie about rape.” But in a discussion, they are likely to say, “Why would she lie?” as though that’s a useful question to judge the truth of her complaint. > > So one of my two points was to say: “Why would she lie?” is not a useful question to ask to prove that she’s not lying. If you take “why would she lie” as “she wouldn’t lie”, you have a point, it is not a useful question. Heck, it’s not even a question. But if you’re saying that questioning a person’s motive to lie is not useful, well, I’ll just point you back to my [post here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7643335&postcount=45), and ask for a response. > [@Bricker Now](#): > > Fair enough. There’s no one-size fits-all answer. The Durham case merely shows what could have happened, not what inevitably would have happened. > [@Bricker Then](#): > > My question to the Board: what would have happened in this case without the tape? > > I contend we need look no further than Durham, NC, for the answer to that question. If that tape hadn’t been saved, or if (as I gather Moonier thought) it showed only the sex acts and didn’t have her up-front planning of them and agreement to them) those six guys would be mortgaging their houses to pay for legal counsel and praying that a jury believed them. Do you see a difference in your inflammatory OP and what you’re saying now? Why post an OP with that kind of unsubstantiated conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/97 "2006-08-05T03:06:42Z")
> [@psychloan](#): > > So do you dispute that there are large numbers of false rape allegations made? Not being an idiot, I have never disputed that they are made. What I _have_ said is “what’s a large number?” You came into this thread disputing some points in the rape myth article, but I think those points were basically true. > [@](#): > > So why not answer my question from before then?: I’ll repeat it: Could you restate it? I don’t know what timeline you’re proposing. ---
**Author:** ![psychloan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@psychloan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychloan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/98 "2006-08-05T09:05:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Not being an idiot, I have never disputed that they are made. What I _have_ said is “what’s a large number?” You came into this thread disputing some points in the rape myth article, but I think those points were basically true.\*\* I cited more than one “rape myth article.” Which one are you referring to? > [@](#): > > Could you restate it? I don’t know what timeline you’re proposing. For the third time: In the Duke rape case, if it came out that the accuser had called 911 and reported a rape 5 minutes before her encounter with the police, do you think that would help the prosecution’s case? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/99 "2006-08-05T15:44:32Z")
> [@psychloan](#): > > I cited more than one “rape myth article.” The first article you posted, which was called “The Charge of Rape, the Force of Myth.” You know, the one that repeatedly used the phrase “rape-myth” about a dozen times, which none of your other cites did. (Why was this confusing at all?) [The Charge of Rape, the Force of Myth (The Washington Post): The Zero 5.0laf - The Official Website of Andrew Vachss](http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/alice_vachss2.html) > [@](#): > > In the Duke rape case, if it came out that the accuser had called 911 and reported a rape 5 minutes before her encounter with the police, do you think that would help the prosecution’s case? I didn’t ask you to write it again. 😛 I asked you what you were actually saying. Are you proposing an example like the Duke accuser, who was already in the hospital for hours? Are you talking about a woman who never mentioned it to friends and only started talking about it before seeing the police? I don’t know where you’re going with it. ---
**Author:** ![psychloan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@psychloan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychloan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227/100 "2006-08-05T18:13:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The first article you posted, which was called “The Charge of Rape, the Force of Myth.” You know, the one that repeatedly used the phrase “rape-myth” about a dozen times, which none of your other cites did. \*\* That’s simply false. I quoted more than one article that used the words"myth" and “rape” a lot. Again, why not simply say the “Vachss Article” rather than lazily waive your hands and expect people to understand? > [@](#): > > I didn’t ask you to write it again. 😛 I asked you what you were actually saying. Are you proposing an example like the Duke accuser, Yes. I am asking you the following: If it turned out that the Duke rape accuser had first reported an alleged rape shortly before her encounter with the police (rather than after), would that fact help the prosecution’s case? I don’t see how I can make the question any clearer. If you don’t understand it, there’s no need to discuss things any further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/false-rape-accusations-revisited/367227.md?page=6)