# Families of two masked armed robbers outraged that armed citizen killed their boys. Want "justice". **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 7, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310 "2013-11-07T04:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/21 "2013-11-07T16:59:59Z")
The guy saw the robbery in progress and was still outside the store, having already called police, when they left. It seems to me that the side of caution is the side where you get the fuck away from there. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/22 "2013-11-07T17:07:24Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The guy saw the robbery in progress and was still outside the store, having already called police, when they left. It seems to me that the side of caution is the side where you get the fuck away from there. Did the guy who shot them act unwisely? Maybe. Do the family members have any right whatsoever to complain that their “boys” were killed while in the act of committing a violent crime? Absolutely not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/23 "2013-11-07T17:13:20Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The guy saw the robbery in progress and was still outside the store, having already called police, when they left. It seems to me that the side of caution is the side where you get the fuck away from there. Leaving anyone else who might wander by at the robbers’ mercy. But, the armed robbers were good kids, so that’s what should have been done. Probably, they would have given passers-by some candy. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/24 "2013-11-07T17:38:44Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > “We bring you the news, while you bring us the news”. Oh my heavens! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/25 "2013-11-07T17:49:53Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Two armed, masked men exiting a store with guns extended after robbing it are not due much benefit of the doubt. I never said they weren’t guilty of armed robbery, so we’re in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/26 "2013-11-07T17:53:10Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > …snip… > I agree it’s a little vague as presented. If they came out and the guy just shot them without being in danger, then I could see a case. If they threatened him, then I would guess that the shootings were justified. > …snip… And, here we have the main issue. It will be his word (the guy who did the killing), against that of the dead guys. And as we all know, dead guys tell no tales. I can see this case going the same direction as another, similar case this year in Florida. It will be interesting to see the forensics - how were the robbers shot, and if there is any video available. Absent that, it will be his word against the dead guys. Count on race playing a part in this as well. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/27 "2013-11-07T17:59:14Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I think that anyone who commits armed robbery has no cause for complaint if s/he is killed during that crime. The death penalty is decided in a court of law, where presumably the judge and jury can take their time to weigh all the factors. A person who is threatened by another person who is waving a gun, though, has to act quickly and decisively. Committing a crime incurs a certain risk, or at least it should. Armed robbery should not be a way to get some money without running a certain risk to one’s health and life. Don’t like the risk? Don’t commit the crime. Maybe I’m assuming something I shouldn’t. Please correct any ignorance on my part before I continue. [ul] [li]I’m assuming the armed robbers had already committed the robbery and were fleeing when they encountered concerned citizen.[/li][li]I’m assuming concerned citizen who already called 911 had the choice to duck and cover or intervene, s/he chose to intervene.[/li][/ul] Let me know if I’m getting it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/28 "2013-11-07T18:02:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Leaving anyone else who might wander by at the robbers’ mercy. > > But, the armed robbers were good kids, so that’s what should have been done. Probably, they would have given passers-by some candy. “Anyone else who might have wandered by, in theory, would have been at their mercy!” That’s a justification for killing a motherfucker? [QUOTE=muldoonthief] Did the guy who shot them act unwisely? Maybe. Do the family members have any right whatsoever to complain that their “boys” were killed while in the act of committing a violent crime? Absolutely not. [/QUOTE] I appreciate that that’s your opinion, but it seems like that justification would hold up whether or not the concerned citizen had actually “unwisely” murdered the robbers. And it’s my opinion that if somebody murders your child, you have the “right” to complain. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/29 "2013-11-07T18:03:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Leaving anyone else who might wander by at the robbers’ mercy. > > But, the armed robbers were good kids, so that’s what should have been done. Probably, they would have given passers-by some candy. That’s an interesting self-defense argument. Has it ever actually worked? The “I could have left the scene but I stayed to prevent potential harm to unspecified others” argument, I mean; not the bizarre “the bad guys would have handed out candy lol” non sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/30 "2013-11-07T18:04:37Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > “Anyone else who might have wandered by, in theory, would have been at their mercy!” That’s a justification for killing a motherfucker? Sometimes a motherfucker needs killed. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/31 "2013-11-07T18:27:42Z")
I’m familiar with that perspective. Sometimes we call it murder when it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/32 "2013-11-07T18:28:02Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > And, here we have the main issue. It will be his word (the guy who did the killing), against that of the dead guys. And as we all know, dead guys tell no tales. If you read the news article in the OP, you may have stumbled across this: > [@](#): > > “The majority of this whole incident was captured on video footage. We were able to review that video footage, and we also benefited from the fact that there were a number of witnesses,” said District Attorney John Adams. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > “Anyone else who might have wandered by, in theory, would have been at their mercy!” That’s a justification for killing a motherfucker? No, the justification for self-defense is evident in the news article linked in the OP. If you read that article, you may have stumbled across this: > [@](#): > > Adams said the private citizen demanded that they stop and wait for police. He said when the robbers refused and pulled out their guns, the citizen shot them in self-defense. > > “He needed to defend himself because if he would not have used force, he himself may have suffered the wrath of those two gun-toting robbers,” said Adams. > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > I appreciate that that’s your opinion, but it seems like that justification would hold up whether or not the concerned citizen had actually “unwisely” murdered the robbers. And it’s my opinion that if somebody murders your child, you have the “right” to complain. It is interesting that you are entertaining the idea that armed robbers who turned their weapons on a bystander, and who were then shot after they threatened that person, are victims of murder. And once again, please note that there is apparently video tape of all this. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/33 "2013-11-07T18:32:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, the justification for self-defense is evident in the news article linked in the OP. I was asking **Bricker** , because that isn’t what he said. > [@](#): > > It is interesting that you are entertaining the idea that armed robbers who turned their weapons on a bystander, and who were then shot after they threatened that person, are victims of murder. What I’m doing, to be specific, is entertaining the idea that that isn’t what happened. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/34 "2013-11-07T18:38:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > And it’s my opinion that if somebody murders your child, you have the “right” to complain. I think this is the only thing you’ve said that I can agree with. The First Amendment absolutely protects the freedom of speech in a case like this. But the facts presented to the press make it pretty clear that this concerned citizen was acting reasonably and in self-defense. He called the police. He gave the robbers a chance to peacefully wait for the police to arrive. He fired only when a specific threat was presented. Witnesses and video footage back up the story. If these facts hold up under investigation, the guy deserves a medal. In the country that I want to live in, this is the appropriate response from bystanders at a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/35 "2013-11-07T18:41:58Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I was asking **Bricker** , because that isn’t what he said. So what? It’s still apparent that you’re throwing around terms like “murder” without even the slightest familiarity with the facts of the case. > [@](#): > > What I’m doing, to be specific, is entertaining the idea that that isn’t what happened. Perhaps you can muse about a hypothesis that CIA racist hitmen descended from black helicopters to execute two kids who were unarmed and buying bubble gum from the shop. As long as you aren’t going to constrain your ideas to the apparent facts reported by the news, you might as well just invent things to your heart’s content in order to maximize your displeasure with this incident. Or, your comments could reflect what has actually been reported and is apparently backed up by video tape and eyewitnesses. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/36 "2013-11-07T18:49:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So what? It’s still apparent that you’re throwing around terms like “murder” without even the slightest familiarity with the facts of the case. What on earth? “So what?” You were quoting my post where I was responding to **Bricker** , that’s what. I’m familiar with the facts of the case. I don’t think you’re all that familiar with what I have and haven’t said at this point. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/37 "2013-11-07T18:49:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m familiar with that perspective. Sometimes we call it murder when it happens. [Justifiable homiceide.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/38 "2013-11-07T18:53:19Z")
Thank you for that. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/39 "2013-11-07T18:55:46Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I can see this case going the same direction as another, similar case this year in Florida. That’s silly. For one thing, these clowns had just clearly robbed someone at gunpoint, and threatened a bystander outside, who happened to shoot them. It’s not like the bystander crouched behind the nearest potted plant and crept out to shoot them in the back of the head, execution style, as they made their getaway. THAT might be murder, but this is pretty clearly self-defense or something very close to it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/40 "2013-11-07T18:56:34Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > “Anyone else who might have wandered by, in theory, would have been at their mercy!” That’s a justification for killing a motherfucker? No. But that’s justification for not leaving. If you’re there, and they threaten you with deadly force when they see you, THAT is justification for killing a motherfucker, or anyone else. > [@](#): > > And it’s my opinion that if somebody murders your child, you have the “right” to complain. How interesting. Do you have an opinion on a similar right to complain if someone legally kills your adult child in response to your adult child’s threat of deadly force? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310.md?page=3)