# Families of two masked armed robbers outraged that armed citizen killed their boys. Want "justice". **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 7, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310 "2013-11-07T04:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/81 "2013-11-08T14:47:42Z")
I feel badly that two people who should have been raised to know better, but weren’t, are now dead because of it.\* I’d love to be able to ask what the mothers did when their spawn first started bringing home guns. Did they kick them out then? Did they kick them out when they saw that their broodlings had new things w/o any jobs or visible means of support? What active stance did the mothers take when it became painfully obvious that their kids jobs were armed robbery, menacing, terroristic threats and possibly murder? \*Someone asked me in another thread why I had such a “thing” about stupidity hurting and suggesting that meanness should hurt instead. This is the type of case I was thinking of. Oddly enough, if they were arrested… turned in… jailed and serving time, they would probably be alive today. Being arrested would hurt, turning in your kid would hurt, but but the stupidity of their actions _should_ hurt, if only because being _dead_ is a whole lot worse. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/82 "2013-11-08T15:02:41Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Someone asked me in another thread why I had such a “thing” about stupidity hurting and suggesting that meanness should hurt instead. This is the type of case I was thinking of. > [@Robert Louis Stevenson](#): > > Two kinds of people get paid in the end - fools and knaves. But the fools first. And I would add, it’s not always easy to see which is which. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/83 "2013-11-08T15:16:06Z")
Since this happened in Pennsylvania, I’ll leave [this](http://caselaw.findlaw.com/pa-supreme-court/1201315.html) here > [@](#): > > In Commonwealth v. Chermansky, 430 Pa. 170, 242 A.2d 237, 239 (1968), we reiterated that “[a] private person in fresh pursuit of one who has committed a felony may arrest without a warrant.   And in Pennsylvania we have always followed the common law rule that if the felon flees and his arrest cannot be effected without killing him, the killing is justified.”   However, we narrowed the types of felonies for which the rule was applicable and held that: > > from this date forward the use of deadly force by a private person in order to prevent the escape of one who has committed a felony or has joined or assisted in the commission of a felony is justified only if the felony committed is treason, murder, voluntary manslaughter, mayhem, arson, robbery, common law rape, common law burglary, kidnapping, assault with intent to murder, rape or rob, or a felony which normally causes or threatens death or great bodily harm. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/84 "2013-11-08T15:22:19Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > There was a homocide… I talked to the mother, and she insists her son was not gay. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/85 "2013-11-08T16:21:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One more armed robbery, and then it’s off to dental school. > > I’m sorry for this mother and her loss, or at least I am trying to be, but I could use a little help. > > Regards, > Shodan I hear the getaway driver was only one week away from retirement. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/86 "2013-11-08T16:48:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Since this happened in Pennsylvania, I’ll leave [this](http://caselaw.findlaw.com/pa-supreme-court/1201315.html) here Given the facts in the article, I think the bystander acted appropriately, I’d like to believe that, faced with similar circumstances, I’d have the presence of mind to respond likewise. Moreso, given this cite here by **Cheesesteak** , it seems that the bystander would have even been legally justified in using lethal force had the assailants not pulled their guns on him and chosen to flee instead, as they were witnessed in the act of armed robbery. Personally, I’d have much rather they not pull their guns or attempt to flee and accept that they’d been caught, but they didn’t, and it’s unfortunate, but it is what it is. And I do feel sympathy for the mothers as well. Yes, they very well may have been oblivious or possibly even straight up bad mothers, but raising children isn’t an exact science, and there’s countless cases out there where children raised by the same parents end up with very different lives because of decisions they made, not their parents. But even if we accept that they were poor parents, I think their grief is completely understandable, and that it clouds their ability to accept that their kids were, in fact, violent criminals. Their reaction is expected. Hell, I think most parents would respond with a similar level of shock and irrationality. How would we expect them to react? “Oh, well, they made their bed, they have to lie in it.” If anyone should be shamed, and I don’t even really think they should, it’s the coverage which raises a level of controversy here that doesn’t really exist. Two guys justly shot and killed in commission of a violent crime. Two mothers in grief over the deaths of their sons due to poor decision making. I think the story would have been best covered by just sticking to the facts of the crime and not interviewing the family of the assailants at all. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/87 "2013-11-08T17:14:29Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > According to the story, the robbers also threatened the concerned citizen. > > This is all splitting hairs a bit IMHO. A couple of scumbags robbed a store and got shot for their trouble. Justice served. Obviously we don’t want a society of rampant vigilantism, but people shouldn’t have to passively sit by and watch crimes happen either. > > I’m not particularly surprised by the statements of their families. In their insular, narcissistic, clueless, self-diluding scumbag minds, their families probably honestly do believe they were “good boys”. It’s sort of like Karen Hill describing the mob wives in Goodfellas. At no point does she ever describe robbing and murdering people as “wrong” or question the morality of staying in their mob-marriages. They justify it as the mobsters are good husbands doing what they have to in order to provide for their families. Even though they are all shitty husbands, even if they weren’t criminals and there are other legitimate ways of providing for a family. > > People have an amazing capacity for self-delusion. And no one wants to believe the reality that they are in a family of scumbags who probably got what they deserved. This. It’s a “my clan, right or wrong,” type of sentiment, expressed by exactly the sorts of people who never really bought into the social contract and the rule of law as most of us understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/88 "2013-11-08T18:56:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It sounds bizarre but it’s true. As a matter of law, the police are not responsible to prevent any particular crime. They could, from a legal standpoint, stand there and watch you get mugged and not lift a finger to help you or arrest the mugger. And yet, it’s standardly given that, upon witnessing a crime, one should call the police and leave it to them, and this is the logic against public citizen vigilantism. That’s some crazy bat-shit logic. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/89 "2013-11-08T18:59:00Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > I hear the getaway driver was only one week away from retirement. ☹ Yes, he was too old for this shit. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/90 "2013-11-08T20:26:46Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > If the robbers had responded to the demand that they stop by saying “suck my \*\*\*\*” and then run off, the bystander wouldn’t have had justification. No…the bystander would still have justification. They came armed with guns and they weren’t home free yet. They came with the obvious intention to kill if they got in a bad situation. There was still plenty of time for them to kill someone. Even if they were in the process of leaving and someone killed them, the shooter is still in the clear. How do we know they wouldn’t have blasted out their getaway car windows while leaving to obscure the license plate? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/91 "2013-11-08T20:52:51Z")
I love how the mother says the police should have handled it yet her son wasn’t interested in waiting around for the police to arrest him. I guess he would have turned himself in because that’s the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/92 "2013-11-08T21:05:30Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Another story that happened this week in Chicago, dumbass tried to rob a store with a fake gun and got shot twice. What caliber that he could walk about after being shot? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/93 "2013-11-08T21:11:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What caliber that he could walk about after being shot? Any caliber. Being shot is not an automatic stop. Men have fallen to a single .22LR yet someone else will take multiple .44 Mags and keep on ticking. ---
**Author:** ![luvrbcs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@luvrbcs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luvrbcs)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/94 "2013-11-08T21:25:48Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > In a nation where it seems every other damn day someone pulls a gun and opens fire in a mall or airport or theatre, it’s not unreasonable that seeing someone brandish a weapon in public, does, most certainly, present a very clear and present danger to the public. > > If pulling a gun doesn’t justify drawing fire, what does, I wonder? > > You’d have to be living under a rock not to be affected by kindergartens students being slaughtered, babies in strollers being shot and killed, etc, etc. > > Isn’t this what gun advocates are always pulling for, an armed citizen, to step up and end the criminal spree? Why isn’t the NRA bragging on this, when it’s what they always propose as a solution? Shouldn’t they be standing up and defending the shooter? > > **Any chance he’s been charged, and they’re going through the motions, just to placate the family?** Bolding mine. According to the DA: “In addition to being exempt from criminal charges, Adams said because of the Castle Doctrine, the shooter now has civil protection from being sued by the families.” That was a very brave thing the guy did and he could have my back any day. We need more people like him. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/95 "2013-11-08T23:57:09Z")
> [@luvrbcs](#): > > Bolding mine. According to the DA: > > “In addition to being exempt from criminal charges, Adams said because of the Castle Doctrine, the shooter now has civil protection from being sued by the families.” > > That was a very brave thing the guy did and he could have my back any day. We need more people like him. They should award him with some sorta town commendation, just to mess with the moms… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/96 "2013-11-09T01:19:06Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Did the guy who shot them act unwisely? Maybe. Do the family members have any right whatsoever to complain that their “boys” were killed while in the act of committing a violent crime? Absolutely not. That’s pretty much where I come down, too. The ‘concerned citizen’ may well have been a bit too eager to play hero, but it’s a hard call to make if you weren’t there. But the guys who decided to make their living threatening people with guns for money had to expect that they might wind up being the ones that get ventilated. Live by the gun, die by the gun. No pity here. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/97 "2013-11-09T01:41:18Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > They should award him with some sorta town commendation, just to mess with the moms… Tell them they are holding a press conference where they will be allowed to speak…immediately after begins the awards ceremony where they pin a couple medals on the guy, and a cash reward for cleaning up the city as well as announcing his lucrative book and movie deals. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/98 "2013-11-09T03:17:53Z")
So now you know, resisting a citizen’s arrest can go down just as badly as resisting a peace officer’s arrest. It would have been to their advantage to submit and wait for real police. And yes, it is an annoyance for the camera crews to descend on the families of all parts affected, perps, victims and witnesses alive, and shove a mic in their faces while they’re still trying to get over the news of a calamity. > [@luvrbcs](#): > > “In addition to being exempt from criminal charges, Adams said because of the Castle Doctrine, the shooter now has civil protection from being sued by the families.” 😕 as to why would it be the Castle Doctrine that applies here, since it happened in the public street outside the shop, not in his property or living space. Is it that whatever provision in Pennsylvania that is invoked for justifiable self-defense also codifies the Castle Doctrine? He’s obviously trying to say that it’s a clear case of justifiable self defense and since it was justifiable, no wrong was done and he’s protected from civil actions. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/99 "2013-11-09T03:28:06Z")
Do I have this correctly, the thieves ran out of the store and pointed guns at the guy, and he shot them? Hell, I’d have done the same if I had the balls. I’d have probably fled in terror. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/100 "2013-11-09T04:03:12Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Do I have this correctly, the thieves ran out of the store and pointed guns at the guy, and he shot them? Reportedly, the thieves ran out of the store and the guy told them to stop. They then started pulling the guns out and he shot them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310.md?page=6)