# Families of two masked armed robbers outraged that armed citizen killed their boys. Want "justice". **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 7, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310 "2013-11-07T04:31:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/101 "2013-11-09T14:10:58Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > If and only If the shooter felt he or a member of the public was in immediate danger then this is OK, if all he was doing was shooting someone to stop a property crime then he did a very bad thing. Note I say property crime. Robbery is never considered a property crime. They had guns. The danger was immediate. > [@Senegoid](#): > > And yet, it’s standardly given that, upon witnessing a crime, one should call the police and leave it to them, and this is the logic against public citizen vigilantism. > > That’s some crazy bat-shit logic. You obviously didn’t read his entire post. The fact that police do not have a legal duty to act is from a civil liability stand point. It you take that to mean that when you call 911 they may ignore you, you stopped reading early on. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/102 "2013-11-09T19:27:30Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > And, here we have the main issue. It will be his word (the guy who did the killing), against that of the dead guys. And as we all know, dead guys tell no tales. I can see this case going the same direction as another, similar case this year in Florida. > > It will be interesting to see the forensics - how were the robbers shot, and if there is any video available. Absent that, it will be his word against the dead guys. _ **Count on race playing a part in this as well** _. (bolding mine) WTF?! 😕 I’ve read this entire thread _twice_, (just to be sure I didn’t miss anything) and I haven’t seen any reference indicating the race of _ **any** _ of the individuals involved. You seem to be the only poster that thinks the ‘race card’ will be played. Any particular reason why you think that? And JFTR, I think that justice was well served. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/103 "2013-11-09T20:39:21Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > If the robbers had responded to the demand that they stop by saying “suck my \*\*\*\*” and then run off, the bystander wouldn’t have had justification. > [@Altivu](#): > > Might as well get my ignorance fought here: if the bystander (after calling the police) approached them with weapon drawn telling them to stop, and the robbers decided to just ignore him and walk away, are you seriously telling me you have no justification to pursue further action? At this point we get into the iffy subject of citizen’s arrest. The statutes on citizen arrest vary widely by locality, but in general America inherited the English common-law tradition of Hue and Cry, which means that in theory any citizen in good standing may hypothetically be charged with the duty of helping uphold the law. As noted in **Cheesesteak** ’s post, Pennsylvania law specifically permits a citizen who has witnessed a violent felony to detain the perpetrator. Now what can a citizen _do_ to effect an arrest? That gets into the iffy subject of justifiable force. AFAIK, neither a citizen nor the police may shoot someone in the back simply to prevent their fleeing. If I’m not mistaken, pointing a gun at a felon and demanding their surrender is essentially a colossal bluff. I presume that standard police procedure is to pursue and restrain, and only resort to necessary force to counter resistance. I very much doubt that a lone officer would attempt to give chase to two armed felons. As far as citizen’s arrest goes, I think a good rule of thumb is “would it be police brutality if a cop did it?”. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/104 "2013-11-09T20:55:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > AFAIK, neither a citizen nor the police may shoot someone in the back simply to prevent their fleeing. Pretty much anywhere an armed fleeing suspect still represents an immediate threat and a police officer can and will shoot them in the back to stop them. Turning your back does not raise some magical legal shield that makes it illegal for a police officer to shoot you. Garak: When the Klingons attacked the station, Gul Dukat and I were fighting side by side. At one point, he turned his back to me, and I must admit that for a moment, he made a very tempting target. Odo: You’d shoot a man in the back? Garak: Well, it’s the safest way, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/105 "2013-11-09T20:56:33Z")
Of course their families want justice, but since they are dead it would be a waste of money to prosecute them. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/106 "2013-11-09T21:40:57Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > At this point we get into the iffy subject of citizen’s arrest. The statutes on citizen arrest vary widely by locality, but in general America inherited the English common-law tradition of Hue and Cry, which means that in theory any citizen in good standing may hypothetically be charged with the duty of helping uphold the law. As noted in **Cheesesteak** ’s post, Pennsylvania law specifically permits a citizen who has witnessed a violent felony to detain the perpetrator. Now what can a citizen _do_ to effect an arrest? That gets into the iffy subject of justifiable force. _ **AFAIK, neither a citizen nor the police may shoot someone in the back simply to prevent their fleeing.** _ If I’m not mistaken, pointing a gun at a felon and demanding their surrender is essentially a colossal bluff. I presume that standard police procedure is to pursue and restrain, and only resort to necessary force to counter resistance. I very much doubt that a lone officer would attempt to give chase to two armed felons. As far as citizen’s arrest goes, I think a good rule of thumb is “would it be police brutality if a cop did it?”. (bolding mine) Maybe where you’re from, but in the state of Texas it is permissible to use deadly force to prevent someone from fleeing. [Cite](http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/2/9/D/9.42) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/107 "2013-11-09T21:57:31Z")
I’ve heard a recorded radio call where a Little Rock, AR policeman pursued a burglar and shot the guy. I don’t recall if the burglar had shot some one during the burglary or not, but apparently the policeman did the proper legal thing. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/108 "2013-11-09T22:00:12Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Of course their families want justice, but since they are dead it would be a waste of money to prosecute them. I like the way you think. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/109 "2013-11-10T02:18:14Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Of course their families want justice, but since they are dead it would be a waste of money to prosecute them. And with that Muffin wins the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/110 "2013-11-10T06:10:54Z")
I would venture that very few us would agree that the appropriate punishment for armed robbery is death. It’s an ugly situation and although the robbers were criminals, I don’t believe they deserved to die and I can understand why family members of the robbers might doubly think so. But I also don’t agree that the armed citizen should be prosecuted, assuming that he felt that his safety or that of others was at risk. That said, I’m not a huge fan of vigilante justice because for every “justified” act there are probably a dozen mistakes or overreactions. We don’t live in the wild wild west, though some people might think or wish we did. ---
**Author:** ![48Willys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/db5fbb/32.png) [@48Willys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/48Willys)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/111 "2013-11-10T08:39:32Z")
> [@Grey\_area](#): > > I would venture that very few us would agree that the appropriate punishment for armed robbery is death. It’s an ugly situation and although the robbers were criminals, I don’t believe they deserved to die and I can understand why family members of the robbers might doubly think so. > > But I also don’t agree that the armed citizen should be prosecuted, assuming that he felt that his safety or that of others was at risk. > > That said, I’m not a huge fan of vigilante justice because for every “justified” act there are probably a dozen mistakes or overreactions. \*\* We don’t live in the wild wild west\*\*, though some people might think or wish we did. First, Greyarea, I am not attacking you, or your ideas, I just would like some clarification. Bolding mine. Depending on what you mean by “Wild Wild West”. If it means hours from police and fire service, then, some of us do. Also what do you mean by “vigilante justice”? “I’m not a huge fan of vigilante justice because for every “justified” act there are probably a dozen mistakes or overreactions.” **CITE**? I know that we are in the IMHO tread, where cites are not needed. However, I would appreciate some cite for this as I can not find these stats anywhere. I am actually very curious about this statistic. As far as the OP, AIUI in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania deadly force can be used on perpetrators of certain felonies, even if they are fleeing. Armed robbery was one of them. It was Cheesesteak that posted about this as I recall. I believe that the shooter was/is justified in his/her shooting these thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/112 "2013-11-10T08:44:53Z")
Armed robbers. Fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/113 "2013-11-10T09:39:14Z")
> [@48Willys](#): > > Bolding mine. Depending on what you mean by “Wild Wild West”. If it means hours from police and fire service, then, some of us do. That is actually precisely what meant by 'wild wild west". If you do in fact live hours from police, then my comments don’t apply and I apologize. Perhaps I was wrong to assume the vast majority of American citizens had fairly ready access to law enforcement. > [@](#): > > Also what do you mean by “vigilante justice”? People taking affirmative steps to stop crime or a crime, sometimes exposing themselves or others to danger. > [@](#): > > **CITE**? I know that we are in the IMHO tread, where cites are not needed. However, I would appreciate some cite for this as I can not find these stats anywhere. I am actually very curious about this statistic. There may be statistics but I’m not going bother to find them. That’s why I said “probably”. If you think that statement is bullshit, that’s fine. What I had in mind was Trayvon Martin, and a recent incident where a black girl was shot and killed after she knocked on a stranger’s door because her car broke down. I guess the latter isn’t quite what people think when you mention “vigilante justice” but I think my definition still applies. > [@](#): > > As far as the OP, AIUI in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania deadly force can be used on perpetrators of certain felonies, even if they are fleeing. Armed robbery was one of them. > It was Cheesesteak that posted about this as I recall. > > I believe that the shooter was/is justified in his/her shooting these thugs. I certainly hope that the legality of an act is not the only factor that determines your approval. That said, if the robbers reached for their weapon, I agree the shooter acted appropriately. If not, it was unjustified. He’s not Judge Dredd. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/114 "2013-11-10T10:34:12Z")
> [@Grey\_area](#): > > He’s not Judge Dredd. He’s an armed man so effectively he is. ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/115 "2013-11-10T10:59:18Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > He’s an armed man so effectively he is. Perhaps [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JnpynfwU70&t=3m43s) is similar to what unfolded. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/116 "2013-11-10T11:01:23Z")
Probably so in the gun owner’s head. ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/117 "2013-11-10T11:13:40Z")
The shooter’s [testimony](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miVoe7U6Lx4&t=0m27s) if he’s prosecuted. I’m sorry, I’m very tired ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/118 "2013-11-10T11:21:37Z")
> [@Grey\_area](#): > > What I had in mind was Trayvon Martin, and a recent incident where a black girl was shot and killed after she knocked on a stranger’s door because her car broke down. That was not a black girl, it was a drunk black man who subsequently rushed at police at three in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/119 "2013-11-10T11:28:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That was not a black girl, it was a drunk black man who subsequently rushed at police at three in the morning. Kind of strange that you assume that I was referring to whatever incident you’re talking about when the facts are not even similar. I was referring to [this](http://abcnews.go.com/US/family-charges-black-teen-shot-car-accident/story?id=20816769). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310/120 "2013-11-10T11:48:57Z")
Did the shooter have his gun aimed at the robbers before they drew their weapons? I assume so. This may have little legal significance but does clarify the situation. > [@Grumman](#): > > That was not a black girl, it was a drunk black man who subsequently rushed at police at three in the morning. These incidents are increasingly common in gun-crazed America (in fact, there were unexplained deaths and woundings at a teenage party near Houston just a few hours ago); perhaps **Grey area** was referring to [the recent killing of Renisha McBride](http://www.freep.com/article/20131107/NEWS02/311070200/renisha-mcbride-dearborn-heights-shooting). ETA: On preview, yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-of-two-masked-armed-robbers-outraged-that-armed-citizen-killed-their-boys-want-justice/673310.md?page=7)