# Families separated at the Border - effects upon the Midterms? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 19, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396 "2018-06-19T19:39:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/61 "2018-06-21T17:02:49Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Sure there is: “Enter the country, pass a citizenship test and background check, and you’re given a visa immediately and become a citizen after three years of committing no crimes. This applies to all existing undocumented immigrants.” You’re not thinking about the complications. So, anyone can come in and stay? No more visas of limited duration, all who enter can stay as long as they want as long as they keep their nose clean? There’s a good reason no one does that. They’d be swamped in short order. > [@](#): > > The bottom line of the “immigration debate” is pure, unmitigated racism. There is no “harm” to be mitigated, except in the eyes of folks who don’t see these people as people. Study after study after study shows that they’re not harming our labor market or economy. We’re spending all this money solving a non-problem. I know the GOP supporters hate it when we attribute all of their actions to racism, but I’m still waiting for them to offer a non-racist definition of the “harm” these immigrants are causing. They aren’t harming our country much given current restrictions and the fact that all things considered, not too many people violate our laws. 12 million or so. Open the gates to all, and it’s not 12 million anymore. It’s 120 million. Maybe 1.2 billion. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/62 "2018-06-21T17:04:30Z")
**TimeWinder** : Yes, and, as we’ve gone over many times, the crime rate among non-citizens is only a third of the rate for citizens, and the undocumented ones pay taxes and Social Security/Medicare without getting the benefits from them. Too many, including some on this board, have shown themselves to be simply susceptible to fearmongering and outright lies told by a tinhorn-pol party whose only route to power is rabble-rousing. Nativism is a cheap trick, done many times in many places with never a positive outcome, but it keeps working - because so many are willing to let it. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/63 "2018-06-21T17:06:53Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > This article in CNN suggests Republicans may be scrambling, fearful that the policy and it’s optics might cost them dearly, at least in the House? While it plays to Trump’s base, it polls very poorly with Ds and Independents. Do you think it changes the likely results of the Midterms? Why or why not? [https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/19/politics/republicans-trump-house-immigration/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/19/politics/republicans-trump-house-immigration/index.html) Well, the crisis is over. Children are now back their partners. What types of parents risks losing their children is a better question? The journey to illegally cross the border is a perilous one, some die, others are the victim of crimes or scams during transportation from other Mexicans. A lot to risk with a small child. Who does the issue of illegal immigration benefit? Most Americans are for better border security, very few will ever openly admit they want no borders. The debate now should be why are we spending so much money on Illegals, while neglecting our own? If we had border security over the course of time, you won’t have to spend as much money on non-USA citizen’s welfare. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/64 "2018-06-21T17:16:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **TimeWinder** : Yes, and, as we’ve gone over many times, the crime rate among non-citizens is only a third of the rate for citizens, and the undocumented ones pay taxes and Social Security/Medicare without getting the benefits from them. Your first assertion is accurate as far as it goes. Your second is suspect. Whether or not they pay taxes depends on the circumstances of their employment and how they illegally acquired it. Migrant workers paid in cash are unlikely to be going to the trouble of doing their taxes and their employers often don’t even document them at all. Those who outright knowingly commit identity theft and use that identity for more than employment are also very likely to be practicing tax avoidance as well. Just check the “exempt” box and it’s someone else’s problem when the IRS figures it out. It happens: > **["He didn't know I was a real person." Illegal immigrant apologizes to man for...](https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/he-didnt-know-i-was-a-real-person-illegal-immigrant-apologizes-to-man-for-stealing-id)** > > Talk about illegal immigration often seems to come down to only two choices. > [@](#): > > Too many, including some on this board, have shown themselves to be simply susceptible to fearmongering and outright lies told by a tinhorn-pol party whose only route to power is rabble-rousing. Nativism is a cheap trick, done many times in many places with never a positive outcome, but it keeps working - because so many are willing to let it. Sure, but much like “open borders” accusations, accusations of nativism don’t really hold water for most people. I think we all agree we’re going to keep some people out, probably a lot of people out, and then we have to get rid of people who evade authorities for awhile. Controlling immigration is as legitimate as regulating trade in goods and services. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/65 "2018-06-21T17:19:52Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I predict this a zillion other things will happen between now and Nov which will absolutely bury this issue. You’re overlooking the maladministration’s statements that they aren’t going to put any effort into returning the children already removed from their families. Expect followup reports, occasionally interspersed with whines and complaints from Dotard apologists about how terribly terribly unfair it is to keep bringing the subject up in late October… > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Well, the crisis is over. Nope! See above. No doubt you’ll be among the whiners and complainers I mentioned. Allow me to respond in advance: [Womp womp…](https://sadtrombone.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/66 "2018-06-21T17:26:48Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > You’re overlooking the maladministration’s statements that they aren’t going to put any effort into returning the children already removed from their families. Expect followup reports, occasionally interspersed with whines and complaints from Dotard apologists about how terribly terribly unfair it is to keep bringing the subject up in late October… > > Nope! See above. > > No doubt you’ll be among the whiners and complainers I mentioned. Allow me to respond in advance: [Womp womp…](https://sadtrombone.com/) You were probably a person who felt border security was a nonfactor during the 2016 election. How did that work out for you? By putting a camera and recent news on this problem, you play into one of the Trump’s stronger suits. That sinking feeling you may be experiencing now… Great, lets talk about the issue. The money spent, crimes committed, etc… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/67 "2018-06-21T17:26:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Your first assertion is accurate as far as it goes. Your second is suspect. Already stated: Been over that. Didn’t sink in. > [@](#): > > Sure, but much like “open borders” accusations, accusations of nativism don’t really hold water for most people. Not for you, anyway. > [@](#): > > Controlling immigration is as legitimate as regulating trade in goods and services. Nobody said otherwise. But that isn’t exactly what’s going on here, is it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/68 "2018-06-21T17:28:47Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Well, the crisis is over. Children are now back their partners. Nope. The feds haven’t even started. They don’t even know where the kids all _are_. Certainly, some of these families will \*never \*be reunited. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/69 "2018-06-21T17:31:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > On immigration, the Republicans have made the tough decisions: they are willing to hurt a lot of people. Democrats, by contrast, want to do no harm, but in immigration, there’s no way to do no harm. All policies lead to people getting hurt. So all Democrats do is protest the harm, but propose no hard solutions. They won’t even say directly that they demand catch and release. This sounds like campaign pablum – there have been Democratic bills put forward to overhaul the immigration system, but they haven’t gone through. It’s just as much an issue in the reverse – Republicans can’t get together a political feasible reform to the system any better than Democrat can. It’s a tough and complicated problem. It’s reasonable to want control over who comes in. It’s reasonable to advocate that the current numbers coming in are harmless or even advantageous to the country, even though that doesn’t mean that there should be no limit. It’s also entirely reasonable to point out that a significant portion of Trump supporters are motivated by some form of bigotry/racism/xenophobia. I’d have no problem having a debate minus the extremists – get rid of the true open borders folks (who I think are vanishingly rare – like less than 5% of the Democratic party) and the bigots (who I don’t think are vanishingly rare – they might be half of the Republican party or more). But that won’t happen, because _Republicans need the extremists_ to be viable. And you shouldn’t kid yourself that, without the bigots, the remaining anti-immigration pols and voters would be “overrun” by the some variation on the various moderate proposals that have been put forth over the years – solid but humane border security, a path to citizenship for the non-criminal already here, relatively easy hiring for industries that rely on immigrants, etc. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/70 "2018-06-21T17:31:44Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Well, the crisis is over. Children are now back their partners. What types of parents risks losing their children is a better question? Is [this story](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-family-separation-wont-apply_us_5b2adb01e4b0321a01cd8e53) the “crisis is over” you speak of? > [@](#): > > **Trump Order Ending Family Separation Likely Won’t Apply To Children Already Taken From Parents** … > > “They’re in crisis. They’re just crying uncontrollably,” one immigrant rights activist told the Times. “We’ve seen young kids having panic attacks, they can’t sleep, they’re wetting the bed. They regress developmentally, where they may have been verbal but now they can no longer talk.” > > Hundreds of children have been sent to shelters in New York City, Mayor Bill de Blasio said on Wednesday, while some parents have already been deported without their children. > > [And faults like bad record-keeping may make it difficult to re-unite families even if Trump wanted to.] As to your “better question”: “What types of parents risks losing their children[?]” let’s try some questions for _you_: (1) Could refugees know that that Trump had suddenly and spitefully shut down refugee processing centers? (2) Could they know that the U.S.A., renowned for “Give me … your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” had decided to commit atrocities instead? Note that most of the refugees at issue, having crossed the border “illegally”, deliberately presented themselves at immigration checkpoints rather than attempting to escape into the hinterland. HTH. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/71 "2018-06-21T17:34:33Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Well, the crisis is over. Children are now back their partners. What types of parents risks losing their children is a better question? > > The journey to illegally cross the border is a perilous one, some die, others are the victim of crimes or scams during transportation from other Mexicans. A lot to risk with a small child. > > Who does the issue of illegal immigration benefit? Most Americans are for better border security, very few will ever openly admit they want no borders. > > The debate now should be why are we spending so much money on Illegals, while neglecting our own? If we had border security over the course of time, you won’t have to spend as much money on non-USA citizen’s welfare. Nope, the cloud is still there. The administration is not going to lift a finger to help reunite these families. Say goodbye to the Hispanic vote. When you’re told by a Guatemalan gang that if you don’t pay up, either you or your daughter will be killed, well that’s motivation there. You have established neither that we are “spending so much on ‘illegals’” nor that we are “neglecting our own”. A very tribal attitude, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/72 "2018-06-21T17:36:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This sounds like campaign pablum – there have been Democratic bills put forward to overhaul the immigration system, but they haven’t gone through. It’s just as much an issue in the reverse – Republicans can’t get together a political feasible reform to the system any better than Democrat can. Sorry, but those bills were dripping with bad faith. Democrats have a long history of voting for tough immigration laws and then condemning enforcement. Up until 2014, we could at least rely on Democratic Presidents to faithfully enforce the law as best they could, while being angrily criticized by Democratic legislators, but Obama pretty much ended that and Clinton ran on a promise to only deport felons. Further, Democrats voted for biometric entry/exit systems and border fencing, but then refused to fund them. It’s a scam. You’re right that we need to have this debate sans extremists, but we also need to have this debate actually implementing what is agreed upon. In a functioning democracy, we debate a policy, a policy is agreed upon, either through compromise or majority rule, and then that’s the policy until it gets changed. Instead, we have written law that is mostly what the public wants, but enforcement that is what the elites want. That’s not how democracy is supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/73 "2018-06-21T17:38:11Z")
If Democrats didn’t know what to do, then why was Obama more effective than either Bush or Trump? And he somehow managed to do it even without committing atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/74 "2018-06-21T17:53:32Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The money spent, crimes committed, etc… Certainly, there needs to be a full accounting of the various detainee-processing contracts and the brib–, er, “contributions” offered in order to obtain them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/75 "2018-06-21T17:55:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If Democrats didn’t know what to do, then why was Obama more effective than either Bush or Trump? And he somehow managed to do it even without committing atrocities. You’d have to define atrocity first. Abuse of kids? Check. Separation of families? Check. Mass deportation? Check. Trump does it more, but that’s like comparing Marcos vs. Pinochet. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/76 "2018-06-21T17:55:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s a scam. Given that there is no apparent political will on any side for locking up illegal _employers_ (beyond the very occasional token example), which is the only thing that could actually make a lasting dent, I suppose it will just have to be left at that. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/77 "2018-06-21T17:59:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Trump does it more, but that’s like comparing Marcos vs. Pinochet. I’m not sufficiently familiar with Marcos and Pinochet to identify which one presided over occasional abuses in the process of doing a difficult job and which one used the promise to systematically inflict abuses as a rallying issue for his political base. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/78 "2018-06-21T18:02:48Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Given that there is no apparent political will on any side for locking up illegal _employers_ (beyond the very occasional token example), which is the only thing that could actually make a lasting dent, I suppose it will just have to be left at that. Trump is doing exactly that. There’s also e-verify, which is pretty close to a silver bullet. The only way to beat e-verify is to steal the identity of a baby or something, and even that can be fixed if it becomes a problem. Just add age verification to the database. While I’d love to see people who hire illegals as a business model locked up, in practice they often get their livelihood taken away because their business model becomes kaput due to losing most of their employees and the authorities watching them afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/79 "2018-06-21T18:03:48Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I’m not sufficiently familiar with Marcos and Pinochet to identify which one presided over occasional abuses in the process of doing a difficult job and which one used the promise to systematically inflict abuses as a rallying issue for his political base. They both presided over systematic abuses in the process of benefitting themselves politically. One was just worse than the other. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396/80 "2018-06-21T18:24:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They both presided over systematic abuses in the process of benefitting themselves politically. One was just worse than the other. One instituted a policy to purposefully traumatize children for deterrence purposes. The other had no immigration policies on the same moral plane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/families-separated-at-the-border-effects-upon-the-midterms/816396.md?page=5)