# Family of woman responsible for deadly crash w/ .19 BAC insists she was not an alcoholic. Possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 8, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755 "2009-08-08T17:51:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/21 "2009-08-09T08:44:14Z")
Just a note that there are confirmed cases in which the contents of the stomach have fermented (one specific case involving pasta about which I remember reading) while a person was driving, resulting in intoxication of the sort described here without the driver being aware of anything except “not feeling well.” Would _you_ realize you were drunk rather than sick with the flu if you hadn’t even touched alcohol? ---
**Author:** ![rekkah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@rekkah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rekkah)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/22 "2009-08-09T10:59:25Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Would _you_ realize you were drunk rather than sick with the flu if you hadn’t even touched alcohol? Nevertheless, if you are feeling that unwell (for any reason) you shouldn’t be driving, let alone driving on a busy road with a car load of highly distracting young children. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/23 "2009-08-09T11:23:39Z")
Agreed, **rekkah** , but it’s similar to the reasoning of people who go to work sick out of a sense of duty. They’re not going to run out of sick days, there will be no negative repercusions, but the first thing affected when someone is sick is their judgment and, since they have a mental image of “dependable person who never calls in sick,” they go in with a high fever. I’ve seen it happen more than once; I’ve been the person ordered to drive a sick coworker to his parents’ (his wife was out of town and the foreman reckoned he was too sick to be alone, much less at work, but it didn’t seem life threatening). You sort’a get mental tunnel vision, when you’re sick enough. That’s the mental part of the impairment, being too sick to realize how sick you are. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/24 "2009-08-09T15:27:04Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > I just read [Drinking: A Love Story](http://www.amazon.com/Drinking-Love-Story-Caroline-Knapp/dp/0385315546/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249781652&sr=8-1). Absolutely fascinating. I’d highly recommend it. Wow, that looks great. Thanks for passing it along **GB**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/25 "2009-08-09T16:22:48Z")
Someone in my extended family is drunk every single time I see her. My wife and I only see her 3-5 times a year, so it’s very obvious to us that she’s loaded. I’d excuse this as being a function of us seeing her mostly on holidays but (1) she’s really, really lushed out even by that standard and (2) I’ve seen her drunk well before noon. But the folks close to her don’t seem to notice. Perhaps they’re denying it, but I really think they just don’t see it. I don’t know why, but I’d assume it may be because she’s drunk so often it just seems like her natural state, and because she functions well despite being drunk all the time. If she ever piles her car into a tree with a BAC of .19, I for one won’t be very surprised, but those close to her will probably be shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/26 "2009-08-09T17:48:46Z")
> [@Neverender](#): > > Hijack; > > Eh? That’s only about half a litre of vodka, right? (assuming a US shot is 1.5 fl oz, as stated by wikipedia). That’s about a regular night out in the UK. Then again you 'mericans think we’re all alcoholics, so y’know… > > /Hijack. > > I’d also like to chime in on the ‘why does it make a difference if she was addicted or not’ side. Surely the key element is whether the family knew if she was intoxicated, not if she was addicted. Fair enough; I didn’t mean to imply anything - I was just thinking of how my own body might react. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/27 "2009-08-09T20:57:46Z")
As I understand it, the was an open bottle of vodka in the minivan at the time of the accident. That would seem to indicate she was an alcoholic. The other choice, that the corner really screwed up the autopsy is just as creepy from a criminal-justice point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/28 "2009-08-09T21:15:01Z")
> [@Neverender](#): > > Eh? That’s only about half a litre of vodka, right? (assuming a US shot is 1.5 fl oz, as stated by wikipedia). That’s about a regular night out in the UK. Then again you 'mericans think we’re all alcoholics, so y’know… I don’t know about in the UK, but in the US the percentage of alcohol in vodka can vary considerably, from 37 to 50% alcohol by volume (74 - 100 proof) Drinking a half liter that’s 50% alcohol is a little different than drinking one that’s 37% alcohol. No way to know from the article if she was sucking down a low or high proof vodka. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/29 "2009-08-09T21:30:59Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Just a note that there are confirmed cases in which the contents of the stomach have fermented (one specific case involving pasta about which I remember reading) while a person was driving, resulting in intoxication of the sort described here without the driver being aware of anything except “not feeling well.” Cite for this? As a physician trained in addiction medicine I find this scenario unlikely in the extreme. Fermentation results in relatively low percentages of alcohol per volume. That’s why people invented distillation; so they could really get hammered. To get a BAC like this woman’s was would require a very large volume of liquid to be converted to a fermented beverage in her stomach in a very brief time, likely far more volume than her stomach could hold. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/30 "2009-08-09T22:06:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t know about in the UK, but in the US the percentage of alcohol in vodka can vary considerably, from 37 to 50% alcohol by volume (74 - 100 proof) Drinking a half liter that’s 50% alcohol is a little different than drinking one that’s 37% alcohol. No way to know from the article if she was sucking down a low or high proof vodka. Its not THAT different, unless your just nitpicking for the sake of doing so. So, she needed roughly 10 drinks of high test stuff vs 13 drinks of low test stuff. Whoop de do. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/31 "2009-08-09T23:35:52Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > As I understand it, the was an open bottle of vodka in the minivan at the time of the accident. The story I read said a ‘broken’ bottle - implying that the wreck broke it. I haven’t seen anything saying the seal had been broken (or not, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/32 "2009-08-09T23:44:43Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > The story I read said a ‘broken’ bottle - implying that the wreck broke it. I haven’t seen anything saying the seal had been broken (or not, for that matter). My understanding is that there was a broken bottle. It would be hard to prove how the seal was broken. The husband may be in denial or he may be trying to protect himself, or both. [Autopsies can be wrong, but quoting from this story…](http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/daniel-schuler-subject-of-suffolk-cps-probe-sources-say-1.1355949) > [@](#): > > A broken vodka bottle was found in the burned vehicle; a medical examiner’s report ruled out an aneurysm, stroke, or heart attack. The autopsy also found undigested vodka in her stomach, according to the Westchester medical examiner. ---
**Author:** ![Neverender](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Neverender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neverender)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/33 "2009-08-09T23:48:11Z")
> [@Cosmopolitan](#): > > Fair enough; I didn’t mean to imply anything - I was just thinking of how my own body might react. Oh, I’m not calling you out or anything, I just thought it a little odd that 10 drinks would be the ‘pass out’ mark. (then again as a male uni student over here you do build up an alcohol tolerance quickly :p) > [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t know about in the UK, but in the US the percentage of alcohol in vodka can vary considerably, from 37 to 50% alcohol by volume (74 - 100 proof) Drinking a half liter that’s 50% alcohol is a little different than drinking one that’s 37% alcohol. No way to know from the article if she was sucking down a low or high proof vodka. I suppose it’s a fair point, in the UK I’d guess Smirnoff is likely the most consumed vodka, with abv of 37.5% I believe, which is generally the benchmark for vodka here. Anyways, back to the OP, there’s a chap at work who’s reputedly an alcoholic - his days off are definitely spent from open til close in the pub, and to meet him for the first time you may think he was drunk or mentally ill, however once you’ve spent a lot of time with him, you know he’s like that all the time. Is he drunk all the time? Who knows. Without the comparison of sober behaviour , no one would know if an alcoholic is drunk or not. Maybe her family just haven’t ever really seen her sober! ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/34 "2009-08-10T00:15:19Z")
**Marley** : right, I don’t think there’s enough information either way (whether or not the seal on the bottle was broken before the crash). Evidence of undigested vodka is another story. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/35 "2009-08-10T00:17:55Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Its not THAT different, unless your just nitpicking for the sake of doing so. > > So, she needed roughly 10 drinks of high test stuff vs 13 drinks of low test stuff. Whoop de do. No telling what she had in addition to the vodka that day, either. I’ll nitpick further by stating that if she was of low body weight/small stature she would be more drunk from 10 however many shots than a man a foot taller and twice her weight. Her blood alcohol was way past legal. Absent any coherent _proof_ or _evidence_ the conclusion is that she got hammered with boozer prior to getting behind the wheel. This was not an accident, though what happened later on was. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/36 "2009-08-10T01:50:21Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Cite for this? As a physician trained in addiction medicine I find this scenario unlikely in the extreme. > > Fermentation results in relatively low percentages of alcohol per volume. That’s why people invented distillation; so they could really get hammered. To get a BAC like this woman’s was would require a very large volume of liquid to be converted to a fermented beverage in her stomach in a very brief time, likely far more volume than her stomach could hold. _An unsual symptom of certain people with severe candidiasis is the presence of alcohol in the blood stream even when none has been consumed. First discovered in Japan, and called “drunk disease,” this condition creates strains of candida albicans which turn acetaldehyde (which is the chemical created by sugar and yeast fermentation) into ethanol. This is a process well understood by distillers of homemade brew. These candidiasis patients whose yeast turns sugar into alcohol are chronically drunk. They have developed what is only half-jokingly called “auto-brewery syndrome”._ > **[Candidiasis ... page 2](https://www.liferesearchuniversal.com/candidiasis2.html)** > > The dangerous results of long term exposure to traditional chemical solutions to today's health problems. And a case where someone used it as a legal defence for a drunk driving charge: [http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE52T5FV20090330?rpc=64](http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE52T5FV20090330?rpc=64) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/37 "2009-08-10T10:06:24Z")
Can you find a disease that turns an Egg McMuffin into marijuana? Because even if she had this disease, and it was able to turn her stomach contents into vodka she was still toking up during the drive. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/38 "2009-08-10T12:41:14Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > [Candidiasis ... page 2](http://www.liferesearchuniversal.com/candidiasis2.html) > > [http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE52T5FV20090330?rpc=64](http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE52T5FV20090330?rpc=64) Sorry, neither cite is credible. from LiferesearchUniversal’s mission statement: > [@](#): > > The Life Research Universal umbrella domain is the result of years of personal education,rersearch and experiences. It is brought to you free of charge in the hope that what has been learned by the people associated with the site may be used for your betterment; psysically, mentaly and spiritualy. > > At present there are 5 main topics; Health (based on naturopathic and holistic health and nutritional education), Hanz (the dog), Love (Christian content), Hotties and Biodiesel (making fuel from used cooking oil). Their comments on candida and alcohol provide no scientific data at all. (Hotties??) As for the Reuters article on the guy in Poland, it also lacks scientific support. I don’t dispute that metabolic processes combined with natural fermentation may on occasion result in a very very low level of alcohol in one’s system, but not in the amounts necessary to cause the levels seen in the OP’s story. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/39 "2009-08-10T13:26:49Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Sorry, neither cite is credible. _The term “auto-brewery syndrome” has been frequently used to describe patients who show features of alcohol intoxication because of abnormal yeast proliferation after ingesting carbohydrate-rich meals. We present a case of a 3-y-old girl with short bowel syndrome (SBS) who demonstrated signs of alcohol intoxication on repeated occasions. A blood test indicated an ethanol concentration of 15 mmol/l, and cultures from gastric fluid and faeces showed the presence of Candida kefyr. An association was found between the introduction of a carbohydrate-rich fruit drink and the occurrence of symptoms. Conclusion: The possibility of endogenous ethanol fermentation should be considered in patients with SBS and the diagnosis of auto-brewery syndrome added to the differential diagnosis list for D-lactic acidosis. Management includes both antifungal treatment and special diet modification._ [http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17701265](http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17701265) Will you take Cecil Adams as a citation? Admittedly he expresses skepticism that it’s seen often, but explains why it’s more common in Japan than elsewhere. For the record, the case I remember reading about intoxication from pasta involved a diabetic. > **[Designated drunk: Can you get intoxicated without actually drinking alcohol?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343791/designated-drunk-can-you-get-intoxicated-without-actually-drinking-alcohol)** ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755/40 "2009-08-10T14:21:14Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > _The term “auto-brewery syndrome” has been frequently used to describe patients who show features of alcohol intoxication because of abnormal yeast proliferation after ingesting carbohydrate-rich meals. We present a case of a 3-y-old girl with short bowel syndrome (SBS) who demonstrated signs of alcohol intoxication on repeated occasions. A blood test indicated an ethanol concentration of 15 mmol/l, and cultures from gastric fluid and faeces showed the presence of Candida kefyr. An association was found between the introduction of a carbohydrate-rich fruit drink and the occurrence of symptoms. Conclusion: The possibility of endogenous ethanol fermentation should be considered in patients with SBS and the diagnosis of auto-brewery syndrome added to the differential diagnosis list for D-lactic acidosis. Management includes both antifungal treatment and special diet modification._ > > [http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17701265](http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17701265) > > Will you take Cecil Adams as a citation? Admittedly he expresses skepticism that it’s seen often, but explains why it’s more common in Japan than elsewhere. For the record, the case I remember reading about intoxication from pasta involved a diabetic. > > [Designated drunk: Can you get intoxicated without actually drinking alcohol? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2677/designated-drunk) Well, that literature shows that if the person in question has a short bowel syndrome or other history of significant bowel resection, candidiasis, and a gene mutation uncommon in this woman’s ethnic group, she _might_ produce enough endogenous alcohol to raise her BAC to about 0.1% or so. So I’ll concede it’s not impossible, but it seems pretty unlikely. The rest of Cecil’s column goes on to back up my earlier point: metabolic processes combined with natural fermentation may on occasion result in a very very low level of alcohol in one’s system, but not in the amounts necessary to cause the levels seen in the OP’s story. Thanks for an interesting cite. I wish I’d have remembered **TPM** ’s column myself. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-of-woman-responsible-for-deadly-crash-w-19-bac-insists-she-was-not-an-alcoholic-possible/505755.md?page=3)