# Family tree question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 28, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791 "2007-06-28T17:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/1 "2007-06-28T17:27:37Z")
I recently ran into someone who’s related to me, distantly. Our grandfathers were cousins. Is there a name for this relationship? Second, third, fourth cousins? Second cousin, twice removed? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/2 "2007-06-28T17:28:53Z")
If your grandfathers were cousins, your parents were second cousins and you and this other person are third cousins. ETA: Your friend’s grandfather is your first cousin, twice removed. (In otherwords, you are two generations removed from the first-cousin relationship). ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/3 "2007-06-28T17:35:28Z")
[A CHART OF CONSANGUINITY](http://john.rootsweb.com/Longstreet/consangu.html) may help to determine precision in such matters. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/4 "2007-06-28T18:54:30Z")
Thank you! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/5 "2007-06-28T19:09:06Z")
[QUOTE=AuntiePam] Thank you! 🙂 [/QUOTE] To help you figure this stuff out in the future, the system is actually pretty simple. The “degree” of cousin-hood indicates how many generations back you have to go to find a sibling relationship. So, your mother’s sister’s daughter is your first cousin, because the siblings are one generation back. Your grandmother’s sister’s granddaughter is your second cousin, because the siblings are two generations back, etc. The “removedness” indicates how many generations are between you and the cousin concerned. So your grandmother’s sister’s **daughter** is your second cousin, once removed. Note that removedness works in both directions – your grandmother’s sister’s **great grand-daughter** is _also_ your second cousin, once removed. For first cousins, there’s no removedness involved, since your first cousin, once removed is either an aunt/uncle or great nephew/niece. Clear as mud? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/6 "2007-06-28T19:14:19Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] The “removedness” indicates how many generations are between you and the cousin concerned. So your grandmother’s sister’s **daughter** is your second cousin, once removed. Note that removedness works in both directions – your grandmother’s sister’s **great grand-daughter** is _also_ your second cousin, once removed. Clear as mud? [/QUOTE] By the same token, we all have first cousins who lived 500 years ago, just many times removed. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/7 "2007-06-28T19:33:05Z")
No, first cousins once removed can very easily exist. Albert and Anna marry and have children, Bill and Betty. Bill marries Beatrice and Betty marries Bryce. Bill and Beatrice have a son Charlie; Betty and Bryce have a daughter Candace. Candace marries Calvin and has a son Damien. Charlie and Candace are first cousins; Charlie’s father and Candace’s mother are siblings. Damien is Charlie’s cousin once removed, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/8 "2007-06-28T19:44:11Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] The “removedness” indicates how many generations are between you and the cousin concerned. So your grandmother’s sister’s **daughter** is your second cousin, once removed. Note that removedness works in both directions – your grandmother’s sister’s **great grand-daughter** is _also_ your second cousin, once removed. [/QUOTE] Is that right? I would say first cousin once removed. Your grandmother’s sister’s daughter is your parent’s first cousin. I’ve always called my parent’s first cousins my first cousins once removed. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/9 "2007-06-28T19:54:02Z")
Your grandmother’s sister’s grand-daughter is your **second** cousin. So her daughter, the grandmother’s sister’s great-grand-daughter is your second cousin **once** removed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/10 "2007-06-28T20:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Your grandmother’s sister’s grand-daughter is your **second** cousin. So her daughter, the grandmother’s sister’s great-grand-daughter is your second cousin **once** removed. [/QUOTE] [Nope.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CousinTree.svg) First cousin once removed. It’s just a convention, so I don’t see how you can try and argue it logically. I could just as easily say that your grandmother’s sister’s daughter is your mother’s first cousin, so that makes her our first cousin once removed. That’s just as logical. Edit: Wait, are we arguing something different? I wasn’t talking about her great-grand daughter, but her daughter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/11 "2007-06-28T21:00:11Z")
OK, let’s start from the beginning. Your grandmother’s sister’s daughter is your first cousin once removed. Her daughter is your second cousin. Her daughter is your second cousin, once removed. Her daughter is your second cousin, twice removed. Your great-grandmother’s sister’s daughter is your fist cousin, twice removed. Her daughter is your second cousin, once removed. Her daughter is your third cousin. Her daughter is your third cousin, once removed. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/12 "2007-06-29T16:31:29Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] OK, let’s start from the beginning. Your grandmother’s sister’s daughter is your first cousin once removed. Her daughter is your second cousin. Her daughter is your second cousin, once removed. Her daughter is your second cousin, twice removed. Your great-grandmother’s sister’s daughter is your fist cousin, twice removed. Her daughter is your second cousin, once removed. Her daughter is your third cousin. Her daughter is your third cousin, once removed. [/QUOTE] Yes, I think you and I were talking about different aspects of the post you were quoting, I see that now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/13 "2007-06-30T18:45:24Z")
Two people (say X,Y) who are related have a common ancestor (say CA). Say CA is X’s n-grandparent, and CA is Y’s k-grandparent. (“grandparent”=1-grandparent “great-grandparent”=2-grandparent “great-great-grandparent”=3-grandparent, etc.) Without loss of generality, assume n is greater or equal to k. \*\* Then, X and Y are “n-cousins, (n-k)-removed”\*\*. (i.e., “cousin number” refers to the length of the longer branch - 1, and “removed number” refers to the difference in length of the 2 branches.) Some examples: X,Y share a grandparent: n=1, k=1; “first cousins, 0-removed” X’s grandparent is Y’s great-grandparent: n=2, k=1; “second cousins, once removed” **Freido** ’s: (from post #5) 1. “your grandmother’s sister’s daughter” Common ancestor? Your g-gp is her gp: n=2, k=1; “second cousins, once removed” 2. “your grandmother’s sister’s great grand-daughter” Common ancestor? Your g-gp is her g-g-gp: n=3, k=2; “3rd-cousins, once-removed” ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/14 "2007-07-01T21:50:12Z")
from _Encyclopedia Americana_, “Genealogy” (which, by the way, has a nice tree diagram that makes this stuff a lot easier to remember) Descendants of you: 1. child 2. grandchild 3. great grandchild 4. great great grandchild etc. Descendants of your parent: 1. sibling 2. niece/nephew 3. grandniece 4. great grandniece 5. great great grandniece etc. Descendants of your grandparent: 1. uncle/aunt 2. 1st cousin 3. 1st cousin, once removed 4. 1st cousin, twice removed 5. 1st cousin, 3 times removed etc. Descendants of your great grandparent: 1. granduncle/aunt 2. 2nd cousin, once removed 3. 2nd cousin 4. 2nd cousin, once removed 5. 2nd cousin, twice removed 6. 2nd cousin, 3 times removed etc. Descendants of your great great grandparent: 1. great granduncle/aunt 2. 3rd cousin, twice removed 3. 3rd cousin, once removed 4. 3rd cousin 5. 3rd cousin, once removed 6. 3rd cousin, twice removed 7. 3rd cousin, 3 times removed etc. “Nth cousin” indicates how far back is the nearest common ancestor, counting from yourself. “N times removed” indicates how many generations apart you and your cousin are. “Joe and I are Nth cousins” (with zero “times removed”) means that you and your cousin are both the same number of generations from the common ancestor. ---
**Author:** ![robcaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@robcaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robcaro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/15 "2007-07-01T22:16:19Z")
My Paternal Grandmother died and my Maternal Grandmother divorced. Later, my Paternal Grandfather married my Maternal Grandmother. Now, I suppose that I am my own cousin… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/16 "2007-07-02T01:50:08Z")
> [@](#): > > “Nth cousin” indicates how far back is the nearest common ancestor, counting from yourself. I can’t really say one convention is more “right” or “wrong” than another, but where I’m from, you count from the “older” cousin, not necessarily from yourself. So “first cousin once removed” is a symmetric relationship: My grandmother has a great-granddaughter named Rita. Rita is then my first cousin once removed, and I am also Rita’s first cousin once removed. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/family-tree-question/409791/17 "2007-07-02T03:48:23Z")
Awww shit. I got’s my shit all confused. Okay, yeah, ya’ll are right. Cousin number refers to the length the _shorter_ branch -1. I was right, however, that the removed number is the difference in length in the 2 branches. I still claim that the realtion is symmetric, i.e., if X is Y’s n-th cousin, k times removed, then Y is X’s n-th cousin, k-times removed. (ETA: I left my wife logged in; I am **Jamaika a jamaikaiaké** )