# Famous lies througout history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582 "2003-11-16T20:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/61 "2003-11-18T17:51:39Z")
Two good ones from the Mountain Meadows, Utah, massacre: We’ll escort you to safety if you disarm. The Paiutes did it. Just about every treaty with just about any Native American tribe. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/62 "2003-11-18T18:25:17Z")
We love the sinners, but we hate the _sin_. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/63 "2003-11-18T20:18:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > \*\*I would ask you for a cite but you know how this religion thing work… there is a general lack of facts that have to be replaced with faith… still calling the inmaculate conception a lie is a bit strong. Don´t you think so? \*\* It’s a matter of a story being created to fit the prophecy, not the event occurring to fulfill it. On the one hand: The overwhelming preponderance of scientific and biological fact precludes a pregnancy without sexual intercourse (in vitro insemination being a modern invention), and therefore a virgin birth (although technically I suppose the hymen wouldn’t have to be ruptured during sex). If you can find one doctor or scientist on the planet who can refute this and provide medical proof, I’d sure like to see it. On the other hand: We have a story in a book, written at least 60 years after the events supposedly took place, wherein one lone woman claims to have been impregnated by the holy spirit, sans witnesses, sans any proof whatsoever. If Mary couldn’t be shown to have given birth according to the prophecy, then Jesus would be just another guy with a robe and a gift of gab. Ascribing events to fit one’s agenda amounts to a lie in my estimation. ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/64 "2003-11-18T20:24:23Z")
The American Civil War was about slavery, and freeing the slaves. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/65 "2003-11-18T21:20:06Z")
_Of course_ I’m on the pill. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/66 "2003-11-18T22:10:56Z")
- Believe me darling \* Of course I’ll respect you in the morning, you are the only woman I have \* EVER \* loved ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/67 "2003-11-18T22:38:01Z")
**akrako1** : You’re correct in saying that the Civil War was not about freeing the slaves, but it _was_ about slavery. Surficially it was about states rights, and representation of the south (and its interests) in Congress. But the whole dispute was underpinned by the institution of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/68 "2003-11-18T22:54:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > \*\*I’ve received several variations of this in the last few months, most of them from Africa. I think fraud is getting to be a cottage industry in some of those countries. Who is actually stupid enough to fall for this dodge? \*\* Well you apparently believe that most of these emails actually come from Africa even though everything else in them is false… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/69 "2003-11-19T00:04:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\*As for your “WE hold these Truths to be self-evident,…”, I don’t quite get what you mean: Is that phrase stupid, or is the whole document stupid? Do you disagree with the proposition that all men are created equal, or do you disagree with the men who wrote that line? Because that’s really what the Declaration says, once you strip away the list of grievances: Everyone is born equal, and born with certain rights no person or government can rightfully take away from them. If you disagree with that statement, I suppose we’ll have a debate. \*\* Except ‘xtisme’ already stated all major points, as usual. Anyway, here’s my take: “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another…”, (or to be exact when some people that call themselves Patriots decide to take over the country by force) “…and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,…” (can we see that “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” code, where we can read who is “entitled” to what?) “…a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.” Yes, let’s see “the causes”. But wait, more rhetorics… “WE hold these Truths to be self-evident,…”, the very statement! What is your position on occupation of Iraq, BTW? Bush and Co. didn’t go that far in making their case. They were providing references. Can you imagine the howls of resident lefties here if Bush were to say such a thing? No, it’s not “self-evident” that men “are created”, that they are “equal”, that they “are endowed … with certain unalienable Rights”, especially not “Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness”, as such an assumption flies into the face of whole of human history, and “Governments” were not “instituted to secure these rights”, because nobody knows how we all got saddled with all those stupid “Governments” in the first place, and where are they “deriving” those unjust “powers” they seem to prefer practicing. In short, XVIII century propaganda, that in due course brought French and Russian revolutions and many other smaller disasters. Americans were fortunate to contain the damage to the minimum. As far as “the causes”, I will not judge. They didn’t like it and they were men enough to do what they have done about it and there is their justification. To prevent any misunderstanding, I admire those men and their actions. I only laugh at the rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/70 "2003-11-19T00:40:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*So slaves don’t count as people in your philosophy? \*\* My opinions on slavery are besides the point. To recite: “…that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth.” That presupposes that such goverment already existed and needed to be protected, apparently by Union prevailing over Confederacy. Pre-Civil War US government was a government of slave-holding country, which obviously didn’t make it any less “of the people, by the people, for the people” in view of AL himself and many of his contemporaries. Therefore, the issue of slavery is completely irrelevant here. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/71 "2003-11-19T02:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > \*\*I would ask you for a cite but you know how this religion thing work… there is a general lack of facts that have to be replaced with faith… still calling the inmaculate conception a lie is a bit strong. Don´t you think so? \*\* No, I don’t think so. Even if the immaculate conception had been a fact, how could anyone possibly have known about it? Somebody had to flat out make it up. Just because millions of people believe something, doesn’t mean it’s not a lie; in fact it’s an even bigger lie. And then there’s the infallibility of the Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/72 "2003-11-19T03:38:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by theR \* > \*\*Well you apparently believe that most of these emails actually come from Africa even though everything else in them is false… \*\* You mean. . . they lied about that, too? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/73 "2003-11-19T05:18:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by New Iskander \* > \*\*My opinions on slavery are besides the point. > > To recite: “…that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth.” That presupposes that such goverment already existed and needed to be protected, apparently by Union prevailing over Confederacy. Pre-Civil War US government was a government of slave-holding country, which obviously didn’t make it any less “of the people, by the people, for the people” in view of AL himself and many of his contemporaries. > > Therefore, the issue of slavery is completely irrelevant here. \*\* No, slavery is at the heart of the matter - perhaps I was too succinct. Slaves were people. Government in slave territory was of them, but certainly not by or for them. The war was fought to extend the protection of human rights that existed elsewhere to the southern states as well. “Pre-Civil War US government was a government of slave-holding country” ??? C’mon now. The majority of the country was NOT “slave-holding”. Slavery was tolerated in the South before then as a measure to keep the Union together while the Grand Experiment got established. Even the Founding Fathers, at least the northerners and even some of the southerners, saw it as something that would have to be ended fairly soon, but that it couldn’t practically be done immediately. Government of, by, and for the people was incomplete, certainly - but the plan was to fix that when it could be done. Only when it dragged on to the point where the southerners decided they’d rather end the endeavor than recognize slaves’ “self-evident” equality was there a war. The Gettysburg Address was hardly a lie, but a noble and inspiring statement of what the war was for and why it was worth the bloodshed. You desperately need to read Lincoln’s second inaugural address, too. [Here is just some](http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html) > [@](#): > > Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came. > > One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. “The issue of slavery is completely irrelevant here”? What the _hell_??? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/74 "2003-11-19T14:24:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by New Iskander \* > \*\*To prevent any misunderstanding, I admire those men and their actions. I only laugh at the rhetoric. \*\* To prevent any misunderstanding, I kinda laugh at your twisted interpretation of the Declaration of Independence. ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/75 "2003-11-19T16:23:59Z")
Nobody has intentions to build a wall. _Erich Honecker_ ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/76 "2003-11-19T16:32:35Z")
Read my lips: No new taxes! - George Bush, Helmut Kohl, etc. \* ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/77 "2003-11-19T17:06:53Z")
No doubt about it, I can sail west and get to the (East) Indies. I got to the Indies. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/78 "2003-11-19T17:27:40Z")
I’m a uniter, not a divider. I’m a compassionate conservative. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/79 "2003-11-19T18:05:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > \*\*To prevent any misunderstanding, I kinda laugh at your twisted interpretation of the Declaration of Independence. \*\* Laughing is good for you. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/80 "2003-11-19T18:29:50Z")
[Australian man busted for running Nigerian Scam](http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/security/story/0,2000048600,20280385,00.htm). [It’s the same old song, but with a different meaning since he’s been gone](http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/internet/2003/0311191248.asp?A=SEC&S=Security&O=FPT). Here’s one which might qualify: > [@](#): > > The lesson of history is that democracies don’t initiate wars of aggression, and if we want to live in a peaceful world, then there’s very little we can do to bring that about more effective than promoting a democracy. People who live in democratic societies don’t like to pay for massive military machines. Democratic societies don’t empower their executives to make unilateral decisions to plunge countries into war. Wars have been started by tyrants who have complete control and who can squander the resources of their people to build up military machines. –[Richard Perle](http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript1017.html), aired November 14, 2002 To learn that lesson from history, I think one might have to omit the history of Africa in the 19th century, the [US war with Mexico](http://www.azteca.net/aztec/war/Mexican-American-War.html), the [Spanish-American War](http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/The_Great_Republic_By_the_Master_Historians_Vol_IV/causesof_c.html), the rise of the Roman republic, and the [Athenian destruction of Melos](http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GREECE/MELIAN.HTM), if not the entirety of the Peloponnesian War. Oh, and probably that Iraq thing which went down a few months after Perle’s quote, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582.md?page=5)