# Famous lies througout history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582 "2003-11-16T20:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/81 "2003-11-19T18:37:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **…The war was fought to extend the protection of human rights that existed elsewhere to the southern states as well.** No, the _issue_ was state independence, written into the Constitution, insisted upon by some and denied by others. This issue was troublesome at least since Jackson was finally elected. It took a very credible threat by Jackson to use all possible force to prevent hostilities from erupting much earlier, because everybody knew that he’d do it for sure. It took all political skills of Clay and Calhoun to keep this issue on a back burner for two decades. It took arranging presidential elections to keep the South happy. It finally erupted after Lincoln’s election, because he was considered a non-entity and unacceptable to the South. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **…The majority of the country was NOT “slave-holding”.** Was it not 50-50 by states’ count, with strict parity insisted upon, while attempted to be broken, by both sides? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **…Government of, by, and for the people was incomplete, certainly - but the plan was to fix that when it could be done.** What “plan”? Can I see? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **…The Gettysburg Address was hardly a lie, but a noble and inspiring statement of what the war was for and why it was worth the bloodshed.** So are Bush’s latest speeches. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*“The issue of slavery is completely irrelevant here”? What the _hell_??? \*\* I dunno… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/82 "2003-11-19T19:00:19Z")
If you do a search on **tomndebb** ’s fine work, you’ll find that every blessed one of the Southern states’ secession laws explained that the preservation of slavery was the issue, and “states’ rights” was simply the mechanism used to justify acting accordingly, saving slavery at the expense of the democratic experiment itself. I already gave you the Lincoln quotes explaining that more eloquently than I can. YOU said the country was slave-holding. It was not. The plan for ending slavery was not defined at the Constitutional Conventions, as you ought to know. The discussion about banning it in the Constitution as written was intense, but ultimately they decided that it would have to be dealt with at a later time. Now, after our discussion, what of the Gettysburg Address do you think is left as a lie? Not the of/by/for the people part, surely. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/83 "2003-11-19T20:39:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Now, after our discussion, what of the Gettysburg Address do you think is left as a lie? Not the of/by/for the people part, surely. \*\* I still agree with Mencken. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/84 "2003-11-19T23:00:04Z")
**New Iskander** : There’s a difference between _ideals_ and _reality_, and sometimes we need to accept a solution that gets us 40% of our ideals simply so reality doesn’t blow us away totally. The Declaration of Independence was a statement of ideals and grievances, written by men who had to deal with harsh realities. If we still don’t live up to it, that’s an indication that we need to try harder, not give up. > [@](#): > > “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another…”, > > (or to be exact when some people that call themselves Patriots decide to take over the country by force) No, when a king thousands of miles away decides to impose arbitrary force on colonists who don’t have the right to be heard in the king’s court or parliament. _That_ was what the `patriots’ wanted long before they decided to dissolve the bands: A fair shake, and an equal voice. They wanted to be _British subjects_, not simply colonials. > [@](#): > > “…and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,…” > > (can we see that “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” code, where we can read who is “entitled” to what?) Read Locke, especially his _Essay on the Rights of Man_. The notion that people are born with freedoms and have the right to defend those freedoms with force was radical at the time, but it has been accepted nearly everywhere since the Amercian Revolution. Now, only the most despotic of regimes would dare deny it, for fear of mass protests and/or revolts in their own land. And _that_ is a good thing. > [@](#): > > “…a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.” > > Yes, let’s see “the causes”. But wait, more rhetorics… They listed the causes right after the preamble, as you well know. Some of them were inflated, but none of them were outright false. Unlike the causes for some wars I could name. > [@](#): > > “WE hold these Truths to be self-evident,…”, the very statement! What is your position on occupation of Iraq, BTW? Bush and Co. didn’t go that far in making their case. They were providing references. Can you imagine the howls of resident lefties here if Bush were to say such a thing? Again, you have to go back to Locke and Co. _Those_ were the ideals, the notions they were fighting for and the notions they would die for. Remember that: Merely signing the document would have ensured their drawing and quartering, let alone actually waging open revolt against their king. > [@](#): > > No, it’s not “self-evident” that men “are created”, that they are “equal”, that they “are endowed … with certain unalienable Rights”, especially not “Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness”, as such an assumption flies into the face of whole of human history, and “Governments” were not “instituted to secure these rights”, because nobody knows how we all got saddled with all those stupid “Governments” in the first place, and where are they “deriving” those unjust “powers” they seem to prefer practicing. In short, XVIII century propaganda, that in due course brought French and Russian revolutions and many other smaller disasters. Americans were fortunate to contain the damage to the minimum. And here we disagree. I agree wholly with the Declaration of Independence, even though I know it has never actually been fully put into practice. It is an idealist’s document, and it outlines a goal to strive to, not a framework to implement. The frameworks would come later, as all of the people there knew. But the Declaration of Independence was the mission, the grand quest, the goal they would strive to achieve: A government that defended what Locke and Jefferson believe to be the basic rights and did no more. A world founded upon Age of Reason ideals, where every man had equal rights and equal standing under the law. Was it propaganda? If that counts as propaganda, so does every public word ever spoken by Gandhi and Martin Luther King. So does every sermon by Jesus and every text ascribed to the Buddha. It wasn’t a reflection of realities, but a reflection of the goals. As a reflection of reality, it sucked and still does. As a reflection of dreams, it is mirror-perfect. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/85 "2003-11-20T01:20:22Z")
Dear **Derleth** , I truly enjoyed reading your post. I still find the rhetorics laughable, no reflection on the Men behind them and their actions. “The notion that people are born with freedoms and have the right to defend those freedoms” was never and still isn’t truly accepted anywhere, beginning with “Ritalin babies” in US as one example out of millions. Those might have been noble ideals, but they were utterly discredited by French revolution and subsequent events. I actually see the ability of Patriots to prevent their new country from falling into the state of bloody anarchy and/or despotism, despite the pernicious twist of the ideas they professed, as their greatest personal accomplishment. The Declaration itself could be cut down to “F–k King George!” statement, painted on the wall of Governor’s mansion; after that all could proceed with a serious business of fighting the war. That would be candid and succinct. But no, what would posterity say? “F–k King George!” wouldn’t look good on those phony parchments everybody is so fond of hanging everywhere nowadays, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/86 "2003-11-20T03:02:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sugaree \* > \*\*Anyway, would “Jews eat Christian babies” count as a lie, or be more in the realm of folklore? It started the ball rolling on persecution long before the _Protocols_ were dreamt up. \*\* You’re thinking of “the Blood Libel”, the claim that Jews used the blood of Gentiles (usually babies in the stories) as part of the Passover observence. Despite being explicitly repudiated by the Catholic church as a lie of Satan, it persisted for centuries in medeival Europe. Probably there are **still** people spouting it. ---
**Author:** ![bullfighter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bullfighter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bullfighter)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/87 "2003-11-20T03:35:27Z")
One of my favorite lies was in the 50’s when President Eisenhower boldly claimed that we weren’t flying spy planes over the Soviet Union after the Soviets claimed they had shot one down. That was just before they produced the pilot. That lie was important to me because I lost my innocent belief that the Americans always told the truth and it was always the evil Commies that lied. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/88 "2003-11-20T07:27:10Z")
Regarding U2/Powers incident, I read somewhere that Eisenhower was trying to improve US-USSR relations before the end of his second term, even contemplating official Moscow visit, and he did insist on termination of spy flights. So when Soviets announced that they shoot down US spy plane, E. was sincere in his claim that there were no spy flights. If this is true, E. was basically screwed by some powers inside US gov’t. There was no Moscow visit and whole world history took a different turn. Again, I don’t know how true this is. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/89 "2003-11-20T08:37:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by New Iskander \* > \*\*Dear **Derleth** , > The Declaration itself could be cut down to “F–k King George!” statement, painted on the wall of Governor’s mansion; after that all could proceed with a serious business of fighting the war. That would be candid and succinct. But no, what would posterity say? “F–k King George!” wouldn’t look good on those phony parchments everybody is so fond of hanging everywhere nowadays, I guess. \*\* **Derleth** got it right (and said it very well). Boiling it down to “F–k King George!” would have had all the moral impact of writing on a men’s room wall. The parchments weren’t phony just because the words were grand. They were necessary to give people a sense that they had a true cause. The only action “F–k King George!” might have elicited would be on a par with burning a sack of dog duty on the steps of Buckinham Palace. This was not ring and run, it was a call to real action, the aim of which was to free a people. Grand words are needed to motivate people to grand goals, then and now. There’s nothing phony about them, even if the writers and their actions are imperfect (read “human”). ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/90 "2003-11-20T14:27:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by New Iskander \* > \*\*I still find the rhetorics laughable, no reflection on the Men behind them and their actions. > \*\* This is at least the 2nd time you’ve said something like this. I don’t understand you, are you saying that you admire the men who started the American Revolution but that what they wrote was bullcrap? A rather cynical worldview, isn’t it? By the way, the word _rhetoric_ is not an insult. \*\* > [@](#): > > “The notion that people are born with freedoms and have the right to defend those freedoms” was never and still isn’t truly accepted anywhere, beginning with “Ritalin babies” in US as one example out of millions. > \*\* What connection does Ritalin have with freedom? Are you implying that freedom is a lie because children don’t have a choice whether or not to take ritalin? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Those might have been noble ideals, but they were utterly discredited by French revolution and subsequent events. > \*\* Please explain how the Declaration of American Independence was discredited by the French Revolution. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I actually see the ability of Patriots to prevent their new country from falling into the state of bloody anarchy and/or despotism, despite the pernicious twist of the ideas they professed, as their greatest personal accomplishment. > \*\* or maybe the ideas were not so “perniciously twisted” as you think, maybe they were good ideas that inspired many good men to rise above themselves and work hard towards a better tomorrow. \*\* > [@](#): > > The Declaration itself could be cut down to “F–k King George!” statement, painted on the wall of Governor’s mansion; after that all could proceed with a serious business of fighting the war. That would be candid and succinct. But no, what would posterity say? “F–k King George!” wouldn’t look good on those phony parchments everybody is so fond of hanging everywhere nowadays, I guess. \*\* Very cynical. Tell me, has anyone in history, in your opinion, ever wrote a genuine, honest, document of belief for noble, altruistic reasons? Ever? I’m curious ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/91 "2003-11-20T18:26:47Z")
Elvis is \* ALIVE \* and working at KFC ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/92 "2003-11-20T18:48:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > \*\*I don’t understand you, are you saying that you admire the men who started the American Revolution but that what they wrote was bullcrap? \*\* Yes. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > **A rather cynical worldview, isn’t it?** May be. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > **By the way, the word _rhetoric_ is not an insult.** Duh… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > **Are you implying that freedom is a lie because children don’t have a choice whether or not to take ritalin?** Yes. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > **Please explain how the Declaration of American Independence was discredited by the French Revolution.** I didn’t say Declaration was discredited, I said the ideas were, because they brought forth nothing but misery, murder and despoty everywhere outside US. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > **maybe they were good ideas that inspired many good men to rise above themselves and work hard towards a better tomorrow.** Priceless… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > **Tell me, has anyone in history, in your opinion, ever wrote a genuine, honest, document of belief for noble, altruistic reasons? Ever?** May be in spiritual sphere, but never in politics. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/93 "2003-11-20T18:51:19Z")
Tell me, **New Isk** have you ever met a cynic who didn’t think himself a hard-headed realist? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/94 "2003-11-20T19:09:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > **Derleth … said it very well.** With _that_, I agree. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > **Boiling it down to “F–k King George!” would have had all the moral impact of writing on a men’s room wall.** I’ll take bathroom wall politics every time. Bush had to go on TV with his “F–k Saddam, we are taking him out” statement and leave it at that. At least nobody would be left confused as to what is really going on. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > **The parchments weren’t phony just because the words were grand. They were necessary to give people a sense that they had a true cause.** People got a “sense that they had a true cause”, when Washington started executing defectors. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > **This was not ring and run, it was a call to real action, the aim of which was to free a people.** The aim was to establish a new country. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > \*\*Grand words are needed to motivate people to grand goals, then and now. There’s nothing phony about them, even if the writers and their actions are imperfect (read “human”). \*\* All dictators would agree with that statement. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/95 "2003-11-20T19:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > No, I don’t think so. Even if the immaculate conception had been a fact, how could anyone possibly have known about it? Somebody had to flat out make it up. Or it actually happened and the people _who were there_ and knew about it (like, y’know, Mary, and God, and later on, Joseph) told people about it. [quote] Just because millions of people believe something, doesn’t mean it’s not a lie; in fact it’s an even bigger lie. [quote] I admit, I’ve never seen a reverse ad populum before. > [@](#): > > And then there’s the infallibility of the Pope. Oh, not this strawman again. The pope is not and is never infallible;l only some things he declares under extremely strict circumstances are, and is no virue of his own that determines that. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say Declaration was discredited, I said the ideas were, because they brought forth nothing but misery, murder and despoty everywhere outside US. And modern Britain, modern Germany… modern France? These mean nothing? Men have always killed, elivered misery and injustice upon one another. The best and worst have done this. But simply bcause one does not perectly fulfill one’s hopes, or that other people twist them for their own darker schemes, does not mean those hopes are as worthless as brass. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/96 "2003-11-20T22:02:15Z")
**New Iskander** :rolleyes: Have fun ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/97 "2003-11-20T22:56:51Z")
**New Iskander** : The ideals of the Declaration of Independence brought together the radical notions of Locke and Rousseau with political reality and the idea that _they may actually work_. As a matter of fact, they _have_ worked: the Americas, Europe, and bits and pieces of Africa and Asia owe their current political systems to the DI. That is the biggest success story of any comparable document, given the rather dismal failure of every single Marxist state. For a revolution to be more than a simple feud between two oligarchs, there must be ideals. Some ideals work, others do not. Some ideals give rise to generally bad outcomes, others increase the amount of liberty on Earth. The DI both works and increases the amount of liberty. That is why it is still remembered and that is why it is not simply lies. Did people ostensibly inspired by it create awful systems? Yes, in France they did. Robespierre and his cronies executed more than Washington could ever possibly have, even assuming Washington was as psychotic as Robespierre seemed to be. (He, of course, was not. For all of his problems, he was fairly sane.) But trying to use Robespierre to discredit the DI’s ideas is simply and utterly absurd. The ideas have gone on to do too much else. What did they do? Look around you. Look in Europe and Asia, where people inspired by the DI’s ideas have thrown off the chains of _ancien regimes_ of all styles. Look in Africa and the Americas (not just the USA, but in Latin America, where Simon Bolivar successfully liberated a different nation), where other former colonies liberated themselves. Look at South Africa, where Nelson Mandela used the ideals of the DI to successfully destroy Apartheid, or Gandhi, who effectively shamed Great Britain into liberating India and Pakistan. Hell, even France eventually came around to the DI’s way of thinking, and it hasn’t been more stable. All of this is so obvious, I have difficulty thinking you’ve missed it. More likely is the idea that **BMalion** seems to hold, that you’re simply doing this for a game. If you are, I shall end this discussion. I won’t even take it to the Pit: You simply aren’t worth my time. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/98 "2003-11-21T00:15:22Z")
The Magna Carta is the “fountain of our liberty.” Not really, since it just benefited the rich. Against all odds, the English defeated the greatest navy in the world in the Spanish Armada. It was defeated, but it wasn’t that great. Captain Kidd was a pirate. Nope, pirate catcher. Lawrence of Arabia was a great friend to the Arabs. Used 'em for politics. The kilt is an ancient and honored tradition of the Scottish people. It’s only been around since 1727, and was invented by an Englishman. Gandhi hated war and bloodshed. He volunteered to join in three wars: The Boer, the Zulu, and WWI. He also gave his blessing to a proposal to shoot ten Muslims for every Hindu who was killed in the state, and also said “I would not flinch from sacrificing a million lives for India’s liberty.” ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/99 "2003-11-21T00:38:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*And modern Britain, modern Germany… modern France? These mean nothing? Men have always killed, elivered misery and injustice upon one another. The best and worst have done this. But simply bcause one does not perectly fulfill one’s hopes, or that other people twist them for their own darker schemes, does not mean those hopes are as worthless as brass. \*\* I don’t believe that state of affairs in England owes anything to US Declaration of Independence. The whole success of American revolution was due to inequality of men, because aristocrats like Washington, Adams and Jefferson managed to stay in control of things to the end of the war and rule the new country for long time afterwards. When “the principle of equality of men” was carried to it’s logical conclusion in France, Russia and many smaller countries, when royalty and aristocracy were swept of all powers, bloody anarchy inevitably ensued, followed by murderous one-party despotism, followed by protracted oppressive dictatorships. When a certain theory produces a single success and multiple failures, when that single success is based on not carrying that theory out to the full extent, how can one claim the theory to be true? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582/100 "2003-11-21T01:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\*All of this is so obvious, I have difficulty thinking you’ve missed it. More likely is the idea that **BMalion** seems to hold, that you’re simply doing this for a game. If you are, I shall end this discussion. I won’t even take it to the Pit: You simply aren’t worth my time. \*\* I really liked your previous posts, and I said as much more than once. However, in your latest post you exhibit the typical traits of a true idealist. You get exasperated with my insistence on disagreeing with something that seems “obvious” to you, formulate a suspicion of my motives, which immediately turns into a firm conviction, followed by grave accusation and speedy sentence. I think the minds of Robespiere and Lenin operated on a similar pattern. If you ever decide to resume this discussion, make sure to read more about “successes” of liberation movements in South America, Africa and Asia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-lies-througout-history/213582.md?page=6)