# Famous or notable people after 1840 who are not in photographs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2015, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675 "2015-11-16T07:07:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/1 "2015-11-16T07:07:44Z")
Around 1837, Louis Daguerre developed the Daguerreotype, and around 1839-1840, portrait photography rapidly spread across the developed world. As a consequence, we generally have photographic images of nearly all heads of state/government, significant artists, authors, composers, generals, etc. after this period. However, I imagine due to a variety or reasons, such as vanity (or a lack thereof), religious or moral objections, a simple lack of desire to sit for a photograph, some prominent person who lived well after the advent of photography has no photograph. Also, if someone only sat for one or two images, there may be no surviving pictures. Are there any people who have shunned or otherwise avoided photography, yet are notable in some respect? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/2 "2015-11-16T08:24:51Z")
There are plenty of photographs of the last emperor of China, and at least one of his immediate predecessor (reigned 1875-1908), but as far as I can tell there are no photographs of the three previous emperors: The Daoguang Emperor (reigned 1820-1850) The Xianfeng Emperor (1850-1861) The Tongzhi Emperor (1861-1875) A couple of famous Native American leaders who were famously never photographed are Cochise (died 1874) and Crazy Horse (died 1877). ---
**Author:** ![journeyman\_southpaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5e9695/32.png) [@journeyman\_southpaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/journeyman_southpaw)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/3 "2015-11-16T08:40:33Z")
Do people who lived in obscurity their entire lives and only got recognized after they died count for the purposes of this discussion? If so, some artists would likely qualify, I’m thinking of early 20th century jazz and blues musicians in particular, considering that no confirmed photos of Robert Johnson surfaced until the '70s. Vincent van Gogh is close, but there’s one confirmed photo of him as a kid and another of him as a teenager. There are no photos of J. M. W. Turner who was well-known in his lifetime but he died in 1851, not far into the age of photography, so not sure if that counts. Ditto Mary Shelley who also died in 1851. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/4 "2015-11-16T09:23:20Z")
**Cecil Adams** ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/5 "2015-11-16T09:52:35Z")
Mary Jane Kelly. Technically, she’s _in_ two (confirmed) photographs, it’s just that she and her face aren’t…particularly recognizable. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/6 "2015-11-16T12:39:00Z")
Crazy Horse, probably. There is an [alleged photo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse#Photograph_controversy), but experts dispute its authenticity. No known photos of Cochise, according to [this book](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OyaeBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT131&lpg=PT131&dq=%22no+known+photographs+of%22&source=bl&ots=NXKzUDl_Ke&sig=L6QDmlOuRAa1q0xdFp7RmJvQ9-A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDoQ6AEwCWoVChMIvZjVmfWUyQIVhJUOCh3y3gAQ#v=onepage&q=photographs&f=false). Also, no undisputed photos of any of the Brontë sisters. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/7 "2015-11-16T13:05:22Z")
[Emperor Ninkō of Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Nink%C5%8D) (1800-1846) does not appear to have ever been photographed. (Or, more accurately: if he was photographed, his photograph is not available online.) However, his successor [the Emperor Kōmei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_K%C5%8Dmei#/media/File:The_Emperor_Komei.jpg) does have an extant photograph, as do all his successors. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/8 "2015-11-16T13:28:23Z")
Almost All the presidents and vice presidents who were around for photography were, apparently, including Andrew Jackson, who died in 1845. The sole exception is Richard Mentor Johnson, the ninth Veep, under Martin van Buren. He died in 1840, so maybe he was just a bit too early for photography to be sufficiently widespread, and he wasn;t quite important enough (unlike van Buren, who WAS photographed, although he lived for over twenty years after RMJ’s death.) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/9 "2015-11-16T13:28:41Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > **Cecil Adams** 🙂 I was gong to say Bigfoot. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/10 "2015-11-16T13:36:31Z")
Interestingly, although we have photographs of the photographic pioneers Louis Daguerre, Henry Fox Talbot, and John Herschel, we don’t have any of the originator of the art, Nicephore Niepce (although we have engravings). Arguably, he was just TOO early. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/11 "2015-11-16T13:41:55Z")
Although she lived until 1850, I don’t think we have a photograph of Mary Shelley, author of _Frankenstein_. A quick search turns up nothing but the portraits I’ve seen before. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/12 "2015-11-16T13:51:45Z")
Muhammed Ahmad, the self-proclaimed Mahdi who lead a large contingent of Sudanese against the Turco-Egyptian leaders. He lived from 1844 to 1885. I can understand the lack of photographs – this was far from Western innovations, which wouldn’t have been that important to his people. > **[Muhammad Ahmad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad)** > > Muhammad Ahmad (Arabic: محمد أحمد ابن عبد الله; 12 August 1844 – 22 June 1885) was a Nubian Sufi religious leader of the Samaniyya order in Sudan who, as a youth, studied Sunni Islam. In 1881, he claimed to be the Mahdi, and led a successful war against Ottoman-Egyptian military rule in Sudan and achieved a remarkable victory over the British, in the siege of Khartoum. He created a vast Islamic state extending from the Red Sea to Central Africa, and founded a movement that remained influential ... I wondered if there might be some Islamic prejudice against photographs, since Muslim art traditionally avoids representations, especially of people. I note, however, that the sultan of the Ottoman Empire have, since the beginning of photography, had their photos taken, so that isn’t necessarily a prohibition. (Note that, even though many of the images in the link are paintings, photographs of those after 1840 do exist): > **[List of sultans of the Ottoman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sultans_of_the_Ottoman_Empire)** > > The sultans of the Ottoman Empire (Turkish: Osmanlı padişahları), who were all members of the Ottoman dynasty (House of Osman), ruled over the transcontinental empire from its perceived inception in 1299 to its dissolution in 1922. At its height, the Ottoman Empire spanned an area from Hungary in the north to Yemen in the south and from Algeria in the west to Iraq in the east. Administered at first from the city of Söğüt since before 1280 and then from the city of Bursa since 1323 or 1324, the ... ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/13 "2015-11-16T14:14:03Z")
There are only two photographs thought to show former Taliban leader Mullah Omar. However, the authenticity of even those is debated. > **[Muhammad Omar](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Omar)** > > Muhammad Omar (Arabic: محمد عمر), and other spellings such as Mohamed Omer, may refer to the following people: ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/14 "2015-11-16T14:55:52Z")
> [@journeyman\_southpaw](#): > > Do people who lived in obscurity their entire lives and only got recognized after they died count for the purposes of this discussion? If so, some artists would likely qualify, I’m thinking of early 20th century jazz and blues musicians in particular, considering that no confirmed photos of Robert Johnson surfaced until the '70s. > > Vincent van Gogh is close, but there’s one confirmed photo of him as a kid and another of him as a teenager. There are no photos of J. M. W. Turner who was well-known in his lifetime but he died in 1851, not far into the age of photography, so not sure if that counts. Ditto Mary Shelley who also died in 1851. Of possible interest: [Rediscovering Van Gogh. - Neatorama](http://www.neatorama.com/2006/08/26/rediscovering-van-gogh/) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/15 "2015-11-16T15:01:37Z")
Banksy? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/16 "2015-11-17T23:15:34Z")
I would have been inclined to say Thomas Pynchon, who’s still alive, but it seems that some very few photographs of him have indeed been published. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/17 "2015-11-17T23:23:48Z")
On a related note, Isadora Duncan died in 1927, and yet there are no known moving images of her. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/18 "2015-11-17T23:41:35Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > On a related note, Isadora Duncan died in 1927, and yet there are no known moving images of her. Here’s one: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/oaFZbhbcft0/hqdefault.jpg "ISADORA DUNCAN UNIQUE FOOTAGE") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaFZbhbcft0) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/19 "2015-11-17T23:49:47Z")
Nijinsky was never filmed, either. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675/20 "2015-11-18T00:52:13Z")
[Geechie Wiley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geeshie_Wiley), a blues singer from the 1930s, made kind of a big impact in recent years. Her most famous song, “The Last Kind Words Blues,” was featured in the movie **Crumb** and a big article about her appeared in the New York Times a couple of years ago. She made three single records in her career and sang in nightclubs up through the 1950s. The people who know about her really, REALLY know about her. No known photos. Part of her legend is that she was wholly unknown outside of a small group of black music fans. Robert Crumb, as a teenager, began his lifelong fascination with jazz and blues 78s and would walk through black neighborhoods in Philadelphia in the late 50s-early 60s, knocking on doors, offering 25 cents apiece for any old records the residents might want to part with. He scored some amazing rarities, including “Last Kind Words Blues,” and any fame it has today is the result of copies from the 78 he bought in this manner 50+ years ago. A couple of other musicians, like the Residents and Question Mark from “? and the Mysterians” are pretty coy about their actual identities and have no known photos. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/famous-or-notable-people-after-1840-who-are-not-in-photographs/737675.md?page=2)