Fan Fiction, Copyright Enforcement, and all that

Scott, there is a dissociation between what your words have been and what you seem to think they are. You say you “just want to reanimate the world of a long-dead author, a world in which I once lived with some pleasure, a world now in darkness.” Your remedy is to severely cut the rights of the current copyright holder so that, against their clearly and specifically expressed objections, you can meddle in this world. And then you wonder why we think your suggestion benefits you and you alone?

Your other assertions are equally suspect. “I think it’s wrong, and harmful both to individuals, and to our society.” Can you explain exactly how it is harmful either to individuals or to society for you - or anyone else in a similar position - to be denied the privilege of benefiting from someone else’s creativity and imagination? Remember that you are in no way prohibited from writing these stories to your heart’s content. Or showing them to your spouse, friends, parents, or fellow workers. It’s just that you cannot disseminate them widely. How is this harmful to anyone or anything other than your ego?

But the writing of fan-fiction can be harmful to the copyright holders in that it can thwart future plans and possible future monetary value of their creations. You evidently did not read the Marion Zimmer Bradley link I provided. For all you know there may be a Hollywood producer who has paid a huge option for the rights to develop a picture around this character that your writing could jeopardize. It has happened. It is a danger for the creators.

The rest of your posts don’t raise very many items that I can comment on. Your suggestions for work-for-hire protections mostly baffle me. As far as I can tell, your three points in your 5/2 post protect only writers of fan-fiction. You say you “propose giving the originators even greater control, in that I limit the rights of employers over works-for-hire, while giving the actual creator(s) near-absolute authority for the rest of their lives.” How do you do this? For that matter, where do you do this? Not in any post in this thread.

And it really doesn’t matter, because the rights normally enforced are trademark rather than copyright. The Sonny Bono Copyright Act that is the basis for much of this brouhaha does extend the copyright for corporate works. If it hadn’t passed, you would have been allowed to show Steamboat Willie, the first Mickey Mouse cartoon, without paying royalties to Disney. And that’s it. You absolutely would not be able to make any new Mickey Mouse cartoons, comics, or stories because the Mouse is a trademarked character. Changing copyright law would have no effect whatsoever.

Again, trademark owners must vigorously and indiscriminately challenge non-compliance. Copyright is absolute. Writers can allow or disallow derivative works of their choosing.

In truth, few writers oppose the current work-for-hire situation. Some legal gains have been made; e.g. creators of comic book characters can regain ownership rights even if they have been legally signed away. Most writers of derivative works would like better royalty provisions in their contracts, but they are usually well compensated for short bursts of work. And it is all done with the understanding going in that somebody else controls the world and the characters.

There are issues that copyright law can affect that are work-for-hire issues, but none are mentioned here. There is a Freelancers Protection Act that many writers groups are supporting that is being considered (and revised now) by Congress. But the main thrust of this bill would be to exempt writers groups from antitrust so that they could collectively bargain for their members against onerous wire-for-hire all rights provisions being built into contracts so that employers can’t demand all rights including electronic rights for freelance work. While this is an extremely important bill, it is arcane and mostly affects non-fiction writers.

And moral rights is the express legal phrase used in contracts granted to writers almost everywhere else in the world outside the U.S. One major issue you don’t acknowledge is the desirability of U.S. copyright law conforming with that of other nations, an increasingly important point given the worldwide distribution of books, both print and electronic. The justification for the Sonny Bono Copyright Act was specifically that the copyright length should be increased to that of the European Union. In other words, there is not much point in shortening the U.S. length of copyright if it remains the same elsewhere – especially on the Internet. Personally, I had no problem with the old 28 years plus an optional 28 year renewal. But the rest of the world sees it differently – and who am I to argue?

In short, I’m not hearing or reading anything about actual copyright law. I’ve seen no backup for your many, many allegations that individuals are being unduly harmed under current copyright law or that society would benefit from shorter copyrights.

Copyright is a giant field with huge numbers of interests and a dearth of good case law. (I’d love to see some definition of what fair use is, which would help everyone here who posts material from outside sources.) Almost everybody has some aspect of the law they would like to see changed. Almost all of these changes contradict and interfere with one another.

Everything you say, however, comes down to an extension of peoples’ [to our eyes, your] ability to write fan-fiction, something they have absolutely no right to, except the right of “I wanna.”. That may be important to you, but in the larger world it’s a minute corner of a hideously complex situation.

Perhaps if you could articulate how your “I wanna” helps me as a member of society, a non-reader of fan-fiction, and a creator of worlds of my own that I hope one day will be a temptation to others as well as an annuity for any surviving members of my family, then I could examine what you want with a different eye.

Exapno–

I won’t get into what I meant to say, what I should have said, what you think I ought to have meant–etc.

The title of this thread references Fan Fiction. My OP references Fan Fiction. The problems I have run up against have to do with Fan Fiction. I do attempt to address some of the larger issues involving the philosophy of copyright. In that regard I quote (in my OP) a comment from you. I object to some elements within it; you have chosen not to respond to my objections, which are primarily “philosophy of copyright” issues. That’s your prerogative.

This thread continues another (to which you contributed, very usefully). Here I summarize that former effort and note that I am concerned with “…cases in which the copyright is on something apparently ‘dead,’ with no plans for further use; and in which the resultant FanFic is circulated in only a very limited way, and (needless to add) not sold.” Yet your second paragraph suggests that you think I’m trying to get the right to sell my FanFic, and in effect urges me to limit myself to doing what I’ve already said I want to do. Are you confusing me with somebody else?

You appear to stress the distinction between copyright and trademark issues; yet you yourself appear to speak of them in virtually the same breath (6th para). I am not primarily concerned with trademark issues, but with, specifically, issues involving copyright restrictions on so-called “derivative works.” As far as I know, what I’d like to be able to amplify-on is not trademarked. If it is, game over.

I gather you are yourself an author who feels some sense of threat from even minimally-distributed FanFic. I say I support giving the author absolute rights for life, or ten years, whichever is longer (ie, the inheritors get the 10 years). I gather you object, and you refer me elsewhere. So let’s get down to the N-G: are you yourself prepared to offer a defense of the proposition that that it’s good for society to allow a commercial entity to harrass, threaten, sue, and (obtaining a judgment) possibly impoverish some writer who wants to make use of SOME ELEMENTS of an old juvenile series THAT THE OWNERS HAVE NO PLANS TO DO ANYTHING WITH–and whose work would be only minimally made available, and would not be sold in any case?

It’s not obvious to me that conferring upon one’s distant descendants a (possibly worthless) right to exploit some property without fear of ANY DEGREE of competition, is more important than the silly little projects of fans like me. I’m not wedded to any particular legal reform; I’d just like to see copyright used in a way that actually encourages creativity and invention–which is the Constitutional purpose for which it was established.

I give up, Scott. Why did you put this in GD if you don’t want to debate?

You have stated over and over that it is harmful to society to not allow fan fiction. I asked you to give any examples of how this could be true. You respond solely by reiterating your right to do so.

I say it again. You have no right to do so. No legal right, no moral right. Doing something you have no right to, that is against the expressed wishes of the people who do hold that right, is harmful to society.

Do you have a position to defend or to debate other than this continued stream of “I wanna”?

Exapno–

I’m not refusing to debate. I’m just trying to get you to respond to the issues that are on my mind, which constitute the reason I planted this thread.

You keep reminding me that I have no right to do X. I have pretty clearly granted that I have no LEGAL right; I conceded that back in my other thread. This is supposed to be a debate about whether I have a MORAL right–at minimum, that the relevant laws ought to be revised. You assert your position forcefully, and that’s fine. But surely you know that your position is not uncontroversial. I have empirical evidence of same: look over the other ongoing thread in this board on copyright. I have the impression that most of those posters disagree with copyright law as it is at present–and they don’t want to make it stricter.

Your post of 5-4 hints at the possibility of a moral position that one might comment upon, when you say “…Doing something you have no right to, that is against the expressed wishes of the people who do hold that right, is harmful to society.”

Is that your key position on these moral and philosophical issues? Do I correctly interpret you as saying that, once the law has spoken on the “who has the right” question, it is harmful to social “orderliness” to continue to raise the question? Doesn’t my post of 5-2 (the analogy to speed laws, and to the California coastal regulation) raise some cogent concerns about that, and thus constitute a contribution to the debate?

Are you saying that I have to provide some kind of objective “proof” (statistical? financial? historical?) that an artist being allowed measured access to pre-existing artistic materials is beneficial to a society’s creative product? I presume not, not with Shakespeare as one of many examples. Do we agree that it’s a question of detail, of where to draw the line?

Or are you coming from a position that “property rights” ought not be subject to examination as to social benefit? The US Constitution justifies copyright law in social terms–were the Framers wrong to do so?

It was you who asserted that I’d been “freed.” In what sense do do believe that I am “freer” under the present regimen, than if my suggested changes were effected? Or does it matter?

I’m trying to understand, not soapbox you.

So we have here two intelligent people who seem to be missing one another’s boats. Can any of you others out there disentangle this? Cause Exapno and I are getting frustrated.

Let’s see if I can make it simpler.

“But, officer, it was just lying there and no one was using it” is not a position that has ever stood a chance of being upheld outside a teenager’s mind.

Got it.

You believe that ownership of copyright is a fundamental right for which a society is constituted, on par with the natural right to retain the physical property one has legally acquired or produced, without threat of confiscation or theft. Thus, just as we do not countenance loss of physical-property rights due to passage of time or lack of use, neither should we tolerate same regarding what is called “intellectual property.”

I do not agree that the two forms of property ought to be completely equated in that manner. Thus I suggest some modification to the law.

And with that, all issues clarified, I think (as Woody Allen said) “What we have here is a dead shark.”

Boy, this is one of those issues I’m always confused by, at least as far as my feelings towards it. I don’t think fanfic is vital to a popular IP’s health, and I think that the way the weirdos affect authors is something serious, but I don’t think it’s morally, legally, or creatively bankrupt, either.

I’m… so… confused…

Oh, well, I’ll just watch Scott and Exapno duke it out while I go try to find some 'fic that isn’t NC-17 (which I never read). :slight_smile:

Leaper,
Scott and Exapno won’t be duking it out “anymore,” nor were we ever, actually. To duke it out, one must actually connect with one’s counterpart. I recommend your looking over the other thread on “new copyright paradigm,” if it’s still going. As for me, I think I’ve got about as much of what I came for as I’m gonna.