# Fanatical Michael Jackson supporters are stupid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851 "2005-02-01T21:02:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/101 "2005-02-02T21:11:34Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > It’s pro forma, isn’t it? MJ is guilty, he just hasn’t been formally convicted for what it is painfully obvious he has been doing. Whatever happenned to ‘presumed innocent until proven guilty’? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/102 "2005-02-02T21:56:58Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I dunno. I have been looking around and found several articles from the same time period which featured Jackson protesting other black people killed by police officers while remaining strangely mute on the deaths of Haggerty and Russ. Interesting. Regarding the Haggerty and Russ shootings: From [here](http://www.pww.org/past-weeks-1999/Chicago%20police%20shooting.htm): > [@](#): > > The Rev. Jesse Jackson also called for an investigation of the Chicago police, comparing the two latest shootings to the killing of Amadou Dialo in New York, Johnny Gammage in Pittsburgh, and Tyisha Miller in Riverside, California. And from [here](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_4_96/ai_55114787): > [@](#): > > The Rainbow/PUSH Coalition held a rally at its headquarters in Chicago with victims of alleged police brutality in the wake of the deadly police shooting of Russ, 22, and Haggerty, 26. > > “We just want justice to prevail in these cases,” said Rainbow/PUSH founder and president the Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr. “In both cases the victims were young, Black, full of potential, in cars and unarmed. In both cases police approached the victims with their weapons drawn. It seems in all of these recent cases of police shootings across the country, there is a rush to judgment by law enforcement officials who fire first and ask questions later. Bobby and La Tanya should be alive today.” Could it be that the people calling Jackson a hypocrite over this issue also have an axe to grind, and are no less guilty of the opportunism that you attribute to Jackson himself? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/103 "2005-02-02T22:39:15Z")
To those suggesting/insisting that the thread title be changed: no. The thread title was a play on the absolutism of the people I’m pitting. “Black people are stupid” is every bit as absurd as “white people are out to get rich blacks.” That was the point I was trying to make with the title. Obviously I didn’t do that great a job at it. Oh well. To those who think the title reveals some racist tendencies on my part, fuck you. I would hope that five years and 10,000+ posts would have a little more bearing on your perception of me than one fallen-flat thread title but if you would rather take the title as proof of my “racism” then so be it. To the specific question of how I would feel about a thread title using the word “faggot,” two things. First, if you think “faggot” is to “gay” as “black” is to, well, “black” then you’re an idiot. Last I heard, it’s not an insult to call a black person black. Secondly, if I were confronted with such a thread title, I’m sure I would react negatively to it, but then I would read the thread and, if it were a poster who had a long history on the boards, take that into consideration before joining the Kneejerk Brigade and braying “homophobia” like a jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/104 "2005-02-02T22:41:56Z")
Okay, NOW, **Otto** , you’re being an ass. You’re not stupid-you HAD to know that this kind of title wouldn’t go over very well, would it? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/105 "2005-02-02T22:50:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Whatever happenned to ‘presumed innocent until proven guilty’? That’s in a court of law-- in our legal proceedings, the burden is on the state to prove a suspect’s guilt. But it doesn’t take Matlock to see that MJ is guilty. Innocent people do not pay $20 million in hush money, nor do middle-aged men innocently invite young boys into their beds. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/106 "2005-02-02T22:53:13Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Is MJ considered human? All that silicone and surgery…not sure if he qualifies, anymore. Perhaps he is a new branch on the evolutionary tree, a new species. _Homo molestus jacksoni_. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/107 "2005-02-02T22:55:15Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > To those suggesting/insisting that the thread title be changed: no. > > The thread title was a play on the absolutism of the people I’m pitting. “Black people are stupid” is every bit as absurd as “white people are out to get rich blacks.” That was the point I was trying to make with the title. Obviously I didn’t do that great a job at it. Oh well. To those who think the title reveals some racist tendencies on my part, fuck you. I would hope that five years and 10,000+ posts would have a little more bearing on your perception of me than one fallen-flat thread title but if you would rather take the title as proof of my “racism” then so be it. To the specific question of how I would feel about a thread title using the word “faggot,” two things. First, if you think “faggot” is to “gay” as “black” is to, well, “black” then you’re an idiot. Last I heard, it’s not an insult to call a black person black. Secondly, if I were confronted with such a thread title, I’m sure I would react negatively to it, but then I would read the thread and, if it were a poster who had a long history on the boards, take that into consideration before joining the Kneejerk Brigade and braying “homophobia” like a jackass. I know you weren’t being racist. But whenever I enter the Pit now, I have to see Black People Are Stupid on my screen. My brain knows this isn’t a “Black People Are Stupid” thread but my heart keeps forgetting that. All it knows is that someone is calling me stupid. Sometime knees jerk because it’s an involuntary reflex. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/108 "2005-02-03T00:02:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Whatever happenned to ‘presumed innocent until proven guilty’? It’s still very much a principle of law. And people who aren’t in the courtroom can still speculate on the guilt or non-guilt of high-profile defendents, just as they have always had. ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/109 "2005-02-03T00:39:46Z")
Interview of prospective MJ trial juror: Lawyer: “Now, sir, for my first question, do you recognize this man?” (Holds up MJ’s [mugshot](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/michaeljacksonmug1.html).) Juror: Thats a fuckin’ _man?!?!?!?!_ Lawyer: Yes sir. Calm down, you’re doing fine. Would you say the man in the picture is black, white or asian? Juror: She’s WHITE. I mean, He is REALLY white. Geez, what the fuck is wrong with him? Lawyer: Sir, do you have any kids? Juror: No… Lawyer: He’s in. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/110 "2005-02-03T01:06:46Z")
For those confused by the earlier references, I changed the thread title to something less offensive. **Otto** , I cannot fathom why you chose such a deliberately inflammatory title for this thread. You certainly know arguments around here well enough to know that asserting “Blacks are stupid” was both bigoted and sure to spark outrage needlessly. You’re usually a very reasonable poster but you really blew it on this one. Do _not_ do it again, for any reason whatsoever. TVeblen Pit mod ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/111 "2005-02-03T02:59:41Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Interesting. > > Regarding the Haggerty and Russ shootings: > > From [here](http://www.pww.org/past-weeks-1999/Chicago%20police%20shooting.htm):And from [here](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_4_96/ai_55114787):Could it be that the people calling Jackson a hypocrite over this issue also have an axe to grind, and are no less guilty of the opportunism that you attribute to Jackson himself? It could be that your examples might be just a bit stronger if the sources weren’t the online newspaper of the Communist Party of America and Jet magazine, two publications which I think might be ever so slightly biased. It is the second quote that intrigues me, however, because Jackson backing away from this position as the facts of the case became clearer is exactly what we’re discussing here, nevermind any dramatic getting-back-on-a-plane moments. However combinations of Jessie Jackson, police brutality and even the victim’s names have generated a bewildering profusion of Google hits, and right now I find that the several dozen articles I have read in the last hour are all kind of merging together in my mind, making it impossible for me to lay out anything like a coherent timeline. I’m gonna need to aproach this fresh another day. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/112 "2005-02-03T03:17:31Z")
Thankyou for changing the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/113 "2005-02-03T05:26:07Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It could be that your examples might be just a bit stronger if the sources weren’t the online newspaper of the Communist Party of America and Jet magazine, two publications which I think might be ever so slightly biased. Do you dispute the direct quotation in the second source, or not? And if not, what does it matter what the source is? > [@Weirddave](#): > > It is the second quote that intrigues me, however, because Jackson backing away from this position as the facts of the case became clearer is exactly what we’re discussing here, nevermind any dramatic getting-back-on-a-plane moments. Actually, this whole thing started because _somebody_ made unsubstantiated assertions about “dramatic getting-back-on-a-plane moments.” I know you’ve since conceded that the story might be bogus, but it’s the way that you threw it out there as if it were an undisputed fact in the first place that is a little troubling. Do you, in fact, “recall” this incident happening, as you suggested in your initial posting about it? Or was the story a convenient prop for your dislike of Jackson? Also, you say that the second quote demonstrates “exactly what we’re discussing here,” which is, you say, “Jackson backing away from this position as the facts of the case became clearer.” But you’ve offered absolutely no evidence that he actually changed his position at all. I decided to do a Lexis-Nexis search of the Illinois news for the period surrounding the shootings, on the reasonable assumption that Chicago papers were likely to follow the story from beginning to end. The first references i found that included Jesse Jackson and the shootings were from the Chicago Sun-Times and from the AP wire from June 8, 1999, three days after Russ was shot, and four days after Haggerty’s shooting. They say: > [@](#): > > The Rev. Jesse Jackson had asked for the Justice Department review. He also scheduled a rally Saturday in Chicago to demand justice for the victims’ families. > > Jackson noted that both shootings involved young, black drivers who were unarmed. The officers involved also were black, Hillard said. > > “It seems in all of these recent cases of police shootings across the country there is a rush to judgment by law enforcement officials, who fire first and ask questions later,” Jackson said in a statement. > > (_Associated Press_ wire, June 8, 1999) and > [@](#): > > The two shootings prompted the Rev. Jesse Jackson to call on the U.S. Justice Department to investigate. “Those two young people were robbed of their lives due to the quick actions of overzealous police officers,” he said, adding their skin color may have been a factor. Russ and Haggerty were black. > > (_Chicago Sun-Times_, June 8, 1999) None of this demonstrates either a ringing accusation of racism, or a backing down from any particular position. A couple of months later, after news came that the Chicago police chief had recommended the firing of the four officers involved in the Haggerty shooting, Jackson made another statment: > [@](#): > > The Rev. Jesse Jackson, founder and president of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, said police should not believe they are without supporters, but, “If the president is not above the law, police are not above the law.” > > (_Chicago Sun-Times_, August 5, 1999) Again, neither an unequivocal accusation of racism, nor a backing down. In all the articles that mention Jackson, his focus remains largely on improper police procedures, and the only references he makes to race suggest that it “may have been a factor.” Also, Attorney-General Janet Reno initiated an investigation into the incidents based largely on Jackson’s call for such an investigation, and he continued to make this request and to insist on the need for the investigation _after_ it was clear that some of the cops were black. In the context of two young black people killed by police in one city in two days, with one group of cops acting directly contradictory to orders to halt their pursuit (and later fired from the force for their actions), and in the context of other police shootings of African Americans nationwide in which the evidence and witnesses suggest that the police stories were—ahem—somewhat less than truthful, do you really think it’s unreasonable for someone like Jackson to suggest that “skin color may have been a factor”? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/114 "2005-02-03T08:18:14Z")
On the subject of stupid fanatical Michael Jackson supporters – anyone see the loon they played a clip of on _The Daily Show_? Nice-looking British woman. Solemnly declared that Michael Jackson had provided an example to her for her entire life and established her “entire moral foundation.” Some people opt for the Bible, the Q’ran, the Torah, the book of Mormon, or the Bhagavata, or what have you. Others think way too much about the lyrics of _Billy Jean_, I guess. In reality, the End Times will be heralded by a cataclysmic war between Michael Jackson cultists and Elvis cultists. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/115 "2005-02-03T08:44:34Z")
Christ. History majors. A bunch of pedantic assholes, and they have been since I was one(note I am including myself in that group :rolleyes: 😉 ). > [@mhendo](#): > > Do you dispute the direct quotation in the second source, or not? And if not, what does it matter what the source is? No, I don’t. I just note the probable bias of their conclusions. > [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, this whole thing started because _somebody_ made unsubstantiated assertions about “dramatic getting-back-on-a-plane moments.” I know you’ve since conceded that the story might be bogus, but it’s the way that you threw it out there as if it were an undisputed fact in the first place that is a little troubling. Do you, in fact, “recall” this incident happening, as you suggested in your initial posting about it? Or was the story a convenient prop for your dislike of Jackson? No, I didn’t just throw the story out there as a prop for my dislike of Jackson. I recounted it as the honest recollection of what occurred. You challenged me on it, and after investigating, I found no cites supporting the stated occurrences, so I withdrew it. I can be as guilty as anyone of citing “common knowledge” that turns out to be false. Sometimes I’m wrong, it happens to everyone. > [@mhendo](#): > > Also, you say that the second quote demonstrates “exactly what we’re discussing here,” which is, you say, “Jackson backing away from this position as the facts of the case became clearer.” But you’ve offered absolutely no evidence that he actually changed his position at all. No I haven’t. If you carefully reread my last post, I said as much. My contention was that we were discussing weather he changed his position or not. The jury’s still out on that one, but I haven’t found a citeable example of his doing so yet. > [@mhendo](#): > > In the context of two young black people killed by police in one city in two days, with one group of cops acting directly contradictory to orders to halt their pursuit (and later fired from the force for their actions), and in the context of other police shootings of African Americans nationwide in which the evidence and witnesses suggest that the police stories were—ahem—somewhat less than truthful, do you really think it’s unreasonable for someone like Jackson to suggest that “skin color may have been a factor”? I do and I don’t. I find it ridiculous for anyone to suggest that black officers are wantonly killing black criminals and innocents simply because of their race. I find it credible that an activist with an agenda, like Jackson, might try to make that case. In this particular instance, my initial conclusions seem to be without basis. That does not change the fact that Jackson leaps upon every incident where black folks can conceivably be cast as innocent victims of “the man”, regardless of the pertinent facts, for his own ends. I notice that you never answered UrbanChic’s question: Do you find Jackson to be credible? I personally don’t, but I’d be interested in your response. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/116 "2005-02-03T14:10:34Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > **Otto** , I cannot fathom why you chose such a deliberately inflammatory title for this thread. Really? Even after I explained it? Huh. Again, it was a send-up of the “white people are evil” attitude of the people I was pitting. Not really that complicated a concept, even if it didn’t come across well. > [@Veb](#): > > You certainly know arguments around here well enough to know that asserting “Blacks are stupid” was both bigoted and sure to spark outrage needlessly. You know, if I’d actually asserted that all black people are stupid you might have a point. Since the first words of the OP were a clarification, you don’t. I guess I put too much stock in the idea that people might actually, you know, _read_ beyond the title. > [@Veb](#): > > You’re usually a very reasonable poster but you really blew it on this one. Do _not_ do it again, for any reason whatsoever. What-fucking-_ever_. Paint me as a bigot, if it appeases the Kneejerk Brigade. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/117 "2005-02-03T14:11:57Z")
Requesting the thread be locked…not returning so save your pithy replies… ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/118 "2005-02-03T15:07:20Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > On the subject of stupid fanatical Michael Jackson supporters – anyone see the loon they played a clip of on _The Daily Show_? Yeah, wasn’t she priceless. As soon as she started talking, though, i knew _exactly_ who she was talking about. I also liked the picture of the Jackson supporter and the Jackson-hater facing off with one another. As Jon Stewart said, it’s pretty sad when Michael Jackson’s trial seems to engender the same level of emotion and fervor as the battles over integration. > [@Weirddave](#): > > I notice that you never answered UrbanChic’s question: Do you find Jackson to be credible? I personally don’t, but I’d be interested in your response. Huh? If you have a look at post #99 in this thread, you’ll see that i did make an effort to respond to that question. Not sure if **UrbanChic** was satisfied with the repsonse or not, but i said as much as i felt was necessary under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/119 "2005-02-03T16:22:32Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Huh? If you have a look at post #99 in this thread, you’ll see that i did make an effort to respond to that question. Not sure if **UrbanChic** was satisfied with the repsonse or not, but i said as much as i felt was necessary under the circumstances. That doesn’t count because I missed it when reading the thread. 😛 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851/120 "2005-02-03T18:12:09Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Again, it was a send-up of the “white people are evil” attitude of the people I was pitting. Otto, the problem is that many of the fanatical MJ supporters are **not** black. And of all the excuses they make for him, racism is very far down on the list. I have not heard this “White people are evil” meme that you claim to have heard; what I’ve been hearing from the fanatics is “He couldn’t have done it because he’s an angel on this earth.” Your thread title seemed like a non sequitur **at best** because it was a response to a claim that few if any of us knew was being made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fanatical-michael-jackson-supporters-are-stupid/287851.md?page=5)