# Fans of the Current Batman storyarc! I (think) I know who done it! SPOILERS (maybe) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 11, 2002, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942 "2002-04-11T00:37:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/21 "2002-04-13T22:33:18Z")
Fenris, I kiss your feet. Nice to see someone who can trash the O’Neil reign on Batman more knowledgeably than I. To all those who think the last 15 years of Batman were normal, I urge you to check out a broad sample of Batman comics from before 1987. Bruce once had a well-rounded personality. Lately he’s insufferable, even to the readers. (I’m a BATO fan, so I know the Outsiders found him insufferable before. But he got worse.) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/22 "2002-04-13T23:14:01Z")
I like the Batman from the animated series the best. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/23 "2002-04-14T00:44:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\*I like the Batman from the animated series the best. > > Marc \*\* I don’t know if you were kidding, but I’m not when I agree with you. Outside of the odd appearance here and there, and the current Rucka stories, the _only_ time we saw Batman in the '90s was in the “Animated” books. (Another reason to trash O’Neill: per Ty Templeton(? one of the animated creators anyway) on rec.arts.comics.dc.universe, there was a period when Batman Adventures was outselling Batman and/or Detective. So O’Neill had them change the name for “accuracy’s” sake to Batman and Robin Adventures (so that it didn’t match the show’s name anymore). Then, when after about 15(?) issues Batman and Robin Adventures started to outsell/compete with Batman and Detective he had them change the name _again_ to Gotham Adventures. Note the word missing from the title? “Batman”? Note the complete lack of resemblance to the title of the show? :rolleyes: O’Neill got his wish, without Batman in the title\*, the book never again managed to outsell or compete with the mainstream Batbooks. Fenris \*A) I know it sounds stupid to grown-ups that the title matters so much, but for a book that was actually accessible to younger readers, the Bat-title _mattered_. B) This sounded like BS or sour grapes to me (why would DC let O’Neill sabotage a hot book?) until Templeton(?) explained that O’Neill got away with it by saying that the Adventure book was cannabilizing sales from the main Bat-Titles, not from bringing in new readers. And to a point he was right: given a chance to read Batman stories, people dropped the Bat-Psycho in droves. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/24 "2002-04-14T04:57:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > I don’t know if you were kidding, but I’m not when I agree with you. Outside of the odd appearance here and there, and the current Rucka stories, the _only_ time we saw Batman in the '90s was in the “Animated” books. \*\* Did I sound like I was joking? 😃 The stories in the animated series were top notch, the animation was good, and Batman is at his coolest. Whenever I read a Batman book I hear Kevin Conroy’s voice. > [@](#): > > \*\* > B) This sounded like BS or sour grapes to me (why would DC let O’Neill sabotage a hot book?) until Templeton(?) explained that O’Neill got away with it by saying that the Adventure book was cannabilizing sales from the main Bat-Titles, not from bringing in new readers. And to a point he was right: given a chance to read Batman stories, people dropped the Bat-Psycho in droves. \*\* During my short stint at Lonestar Comics I pointed many parents in the direction of Gotham Adventures and the Superman title based of the animated series. I even read a few of the Gotham Adventures and I found them to be not only well written but perfect for getting younger kids to read comics. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/25 "2002-06-13T17:50:56Z")
So apparantly we’ve found out that some guy clad in a strange black bodysuit is responsible for the murder. Apparantly he sneaked through the batcave, knocked Vesper out with a special nerve strike, beat her to a pulp when she woke up, and then murdered her. Who did it? I admit that I’m now clueless. Al-Ghul is still my most likely candidate but they’ve supposedly removed him as a suspect already. And it was interesting that when Batman called Oracle he said “This is Bruce…” I guess he’s changing his mind about removing Bruce Wayne from the world. Maybe soon he will no longer be super psycho Batman. Marc ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/26 "2002-06-13T18:46:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > Then he had his infamous 1-800-ROB-LIVS or 1-800-SNUF-ROB contest. But he didn’t have the brains or foresight to realize that to all those people out there Robin=Dick Grayson and the ROB-LIVS lines were jammed. Since the artwork for Robin surviving was never actually done, apparently O’Neil had to dragoon a bunch of DC Staffers to spend evenings calling the SNUF-ROB line to stuff the ballot box. (Per Jim Starlin, I believe). > > Fenris \*\* The artwork for having Robin survive certainly was done, it was simply never published because the final vote came out with Robin dying. There was a panel or two of the art for Robin Lives that Jim Aparo had done. It was in the big 60 Years of DC Comics hardcover. As for “all those people” thinking that Robin=Dick Grayson, no. Not if you actually read some of the letters in the letter column where it was damn clear that they knew that Jason Todd was Robin and Grayson wasn’t. And I’d like a cite please for O’Neil making DC staffers call the SNUF-ROB line. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/27 "2002-06-13T19:14:21Z")
Y’know, those puzzle pieces on the cover are supposed to assemble into _something_… I’m gonna take the obvious stab at Luthor again. For some reason, the few bits we’ve seen of the killer’s face make me think of him. (Although there’d be an inconsistency here…would President Luthor **really** travel all the way to Gotham to make the kill himself? A hired assassin is more likely, but then Luthor technically isn’t the killer.) Besides, Lex had some nasty comments about accused-murderer Wayne in this month’s issue of Superman. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/28 "2002-06-13T20:06:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WSLer \* > \*\* > As for “all those people” thinking that Robin=Dick Grayson, no. Not if you actually read some of the letters in the letter column where it was damn clear that they knew that Jason Todd was Robin and Grayson wasn’t. \*\* People who don’t read the comics are the ones who were confused over the identity of Robin. All the cartoons have Dick as Robin, the television show had Dick as Robin, and the movies have Dick as Robin. In the mind of most people who do not read comics Dick Grayson is Robin. If you asked those same people who Batgirl was they’d tell you Babs Gordon not some mute girl raised by an assassin and most people don’t think of Lois and Clark as being married. Hell, I bet most people who don’t read comics couldn’t even name the 2nd Robin and perhaps not the third. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/29 "2002-06-13T21:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WSLer \* > \*\* > > The artwork for having Robin survive certainly was done, it was simply never published because the final vote came out with Robin dying. There was a panel or two of the art for Robin Lives that Jim Aparo had done. It was in the big 60 Years of DC Comics hardcover. > \*\* Allegedly after the fact. At the time, only the couple of panels were actually completed. (One panel of Jason II in a hospital bed, one panel of Batman holding Jason II and a groan issuing from Jason’s mouth). > [@](#): > > \*\* > As for “all those people” thinking that Robin=Dick Grayson, no. Not if you actually read some of the letters in the letter column where it was damn clear that they knew that Jason Todd was Robin and Grayson wasn’t. \*\* A) Letter columns are controlled by editors who frequently pick and choose letters that support their point of view. See Howard the Duck’s lettercol after Gerber left for a good example. B) People who write into letter columns != the vast majority of people who voted. \*\* > [@](#): > > And I’d like a cite please for O’Neil making DC staffers call the SNUF-ROB line. \*\* I’ll see if I can find the source. It may be in Amazing Heroes or Comics Journal. I don’t remember where I got this from originally…I keep associating it with Jim Starlin for some reason, but lemme look and see if I can find a source. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942/30 "2002-06-13T21:29:49Z")
Marc: I’ll stand by my Hugo Strange theory. 1) The “Beaten to death” thing: isn’t that what Boss Thorne’s goons tried to do to him? 2) He knows nerve pinches, et al. I admit that I can’t find a black bodysuit connection. **Res** Luthor wouldn’t play all the headgames, he’d just have Bats snuffed. And in the long run, I think it’d be WAAY too damaging to Bat’s career to have Luthor know. Man, this storyline has me intersested (though it’s dragging somewhat)! Fenris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fans-of-the-current-batman-storyarc-i-think-i-know-who-done-it-spoilers-maybe/102942.md?page=1)