# Fantasy help needed **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 10, 2001, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362 "2001-01-10T17:35:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hometownboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5e9695/32.png) [@Hometownboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hometownboy)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/21 "2001-01-11T01:02:43Z")
I’ll have to say that for literate, intelligent fantasy I would recommend Randall Garrett’s \*\* Lord D’Arcy \*\* series “Too Many Magicians”, “Murder and Magic” and “Lord D’Arcy Investigates”. Features a world in which Richard the Lionhearted recovered from his wounds, rethought his life and settled down to providing real leadership for the kingdom, which grew into the Angevin Empire embracing England, France and the New World. Also, magic works and is subject to rules such as The Law of Similarity and the Law of Contagian. Heros are Lord D’Arcy (a Sherlock Holmes style character) whose sidekick is a magician. Technology about that of Victorian England with horsedrawn transport, trains and such. Enemies largely from the Kingdom of Poland which covers most of eastern Europe. Well thought out and wittily written. Two more books by Michael Kurland continued the series after Garrett died and are also worth looking at. Happy reading. ---
**Author:** ![Osip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4491bb/32.png) [@Osip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Osip)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/22 "2001-01-11T01:06:41Z")
The Assassin trilogy witten by Hobbs is real good IMHO. not home to look up more details. Osip ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/23 "2001-01-11T01:24:21Z")
Oh yeah! Robin Hobb (aka Megan Lindholm) wrote the Assassin trilogy, and also the more recent Liveship Traders trilogy. Each are outstanding! Highly recommended. Fantasy that deals with aspects to the culture that aren’t usually concentrated on so much. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/24 "2001-01-11T01:52:55Z")
C.S. Friedman’s _Coldfire_ trilogy is really good, dispite the fact that no one seems to have heard of it. Interesting set up world, and most of the characters are great. Starts off a bit slow, but don’t let that fool you. Walter Jon Willams _Metropolitan_ was an attempt to revolutionize the fantasy genere. Obviously it didn’t take, but it’s still a great book. If you’re in the mood for something funny, George Alec Effinger’s _Zork_ book is great. It’s has almost nothing to do with the computer game, it’s a sort of freestyle satire of mythology in general and fantasy in perticular. I’m a bit miffed at Martin, frankly. _Clash of Kings_ ends with my favorate character, Theon (Yeah, I liked Theon. Bite me. 🙂 )“Missing in action,” in a sort of maybe dead, maybe will show up later after we’ve forgotten about him and mess up the plot seriously. Now, that’s ok, but in _Storm of Swords,_ he does the EXACT SAME THING with my second favorate character, Sandor Clagane. If this happens with Dontos in the next one, I’m afraid I’m going to have to get irritated. – “Who is this mysterious stranger with pecs like melons and knees of fringe?” ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/25 "2001-01-11T02:09:56Z")
Here are some that I like: [ul] [li]Steven Brust’s **Jhereg** novels[/li][li]_Hunter’s Oath_ and _Hunter’s Death_ by Michelle West. She also has a trilogy set in the same world, but I’m still in the middle of book one.[/li][li]If SF recommendation are allowed: _Partners in Necessity_ (contains 2 novels: _Conflict of Honors_, _Agent of Change_ and _Carpe Diem_) and _Plan B_ by Steve Miller and Sharon Lee.[/li][li]_Assassin’s Apprentice_, _Royal Assassin_ and _Assassin’s Quest_ by Robin Hobbs[/li][li]_The Silver Wolf_ and _Night of the Wolf_ by Alice Borchadt[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/26 "2001-01-11T07:43:58Z")
I’m not a big fantasy fan, leaning more towards SF, but I like Michael Moorcock’s stories of Elric of Melniboné. Very dark, well written, and they don’t have the clichéd ‘Tolkienesque’ standard fantasy setting. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/27 "2001-01-11T07:55:17Z")
I’ll second (third, fourth, whatever) Terry Pratchett and raise you guys a Neil Gaimen and a Tim Powers. Alessan, somewhere, somehow, get your hands on a copy of _Good Omens_ by Pratchett and Gaimen. You’ll thank me. _Last Call_, and _The Anubis Gates_ by Powers are excellent as well. I’m also a fan of Barbara Hambly, though I understand she appeals more to women than men. Of hers, I’d recommend the Rosewind Chronicles, _Bride of the Rat God_, and _Those Who Hunt the Night_ ---
**Author:** ![RocknRoll\_Killing\_Machine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5daacb/32.png) [@RocknRoll\_Killing\_Machine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RocknRoll_Killing_Machine)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/28 "2001-01-11T08:39:17Z")
You might find them formulaic, but I find L.E. Modesitt Jr’s Recluce series to be quite enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/29 "2001-01-11T13:16:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by phouka \* > \*\*I’ll second (third, fourth, whatever) Terry Pratchett and raise you guys a Neil Gaimen and a Tim Powers. > > Alessan, somewhere, somehow, get your hands on a copy of _Good Omens_ by Pratchett and Gaimen. You’ll thank me. > > _Last Call_, and _The Anubis Gates_ by Powers are excellent as well. > > I’m also a fan of Barbara Hambly, though I understand she appeals more to women than men. Of hers, I’d recommend the Rosewind Chronicles, _Bride of the Rat God_, and _Those Who Hunt the Night_ \*\* Neil Gaiman, not Gaimen. Based on this post, I owe it to myself to check out Powers. I second the motion to get _Good Omens_. It’s hilarious. Gaiman is wonderful by himself, as well. Hambly appeals to men as well, but her audience DOES seem to include more women. Her novels and series are extremely self-consistent. I like to give mundanes a copy of _Dragonsbane_, and watch them convert to reading fantasy. Elizabeth Moon writes excellent fantasy, but I consider her to be only mediocre in SF. Fortunately, it’s pretty easy to tell which is which. Diana Wynne Jones writes excellent books, mostly for children, but don’t let that stop you. They’re quite enjoyable for adults, too. Since you’re burned out on formula fantasies, you might enjoy her _Tough Guide to Fantasyland_(title? daughter has it right now) which isn’t a novel, but a description of just about every cliche in fantasy. Robin McKinley. _The Blue Sword_ and _The Hero and the Crown_ in particular, but any of her books are worth checking out. She’s also retold a couple of traditional fairy tales, and done it very well. Diane Duane. George Alec Effinger. If you can get a copy of his _Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson_, do so. This isn’t traditional fantasy, by any means. You should NOT eat or drink anything while reading any of his Maureen (don’t call me Muffy, or I’ll split you in two with my sword) stories, as you might choke. Basically, a Valley Girl has Fantastic Adventures. This has to be read to be believed. How do you feel about Ursula K. LeGuin? You HAVE read LeGuin, right? There are more, many more that I like. Right now, of course, I can’t think of anybody. One semi-hijack, you simply MUST go to [http://www.eviloverlord.com](http://www.eviloverlord.com) and check out: "The Top 100 Things I’d Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord Being an Evil Overlord seems to be a good career choice. It pays well, there are all sorts of perks and you can set your own hours. However every Evil Overlord I’ve read about in books or seen in movies invariably gets overthrown and destroyed in the end. I’ve noticed that no matter whether they are barbarian lords, deranged wizards, mad scientists or alien invaders, they always seem to make the same basic mistakes every single time. With that in mind, allow me to present… " This site provides such useful tips as “I will not strike a bargain with a demonic being then attempt to double-cross it simply because I feel like being contrary.” I’m sure that we can all profit from this advice. ---
**Author:** ![Mnementh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/898d66/32.png) [@Mnementh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnementh)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/30 "2001-01-11T13:40:37Z")
Anne MacCaffery. Natch. Three seconds into the first book and you’ll see where my name came from. hehe. It’s like a 15 book series or something, so it’ll keep you busy for a while, anyway. That, or Joanne Bertin’s series, starting with _The Last Dragonlord_. Good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/31 "2001-01-11T15:18:57Z")
I second the Stephen Brust and George Alec Effinger suggestions. Brust can load his books down with overpowered characters and seem formulaic at first, but he seems to be able to come up with a different spin/perspective to each book that makes it unique. Effinger is just interestingly bizarre. Also, wait a year or two, Alessan, and my first book ought to be out - if the slow-reading gods in publisherland know what’s good for 'em. Lastly, on the Zelazny question, regarding the loose-ends in the Amber series. I wrote a short novel for warm-up practice in college that attempted to answer most of the leftover issues, if anyone’s interested. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/32 "2001-01-11T16:03:57Z")
Great advice, guys. I finally have a real reading list. Some comments: **Ura-Maru** - your favorite character is a weak-willed fool who’s willing to murder preadolescent children and then strip the skin of their faces? Interesting. I read _Coldfire_ - the first two were good, but the last was meandering and anticlimactic, wasting almost half of its length on some worthless new character I couldn’t care less about. Disappointing. **Badtz Maru** (are you guys related?) - I’ve read a lot of the Elric stories, and thry’re fun, in a pulpy sort of way. They’re not “Tolkienesque” because they trace their descent from the other father of modern fantasy, Robert E. Howard. Good end-of-the-world story, though. **phouka, Lynn** - Gaiman is one of my greatest hopes for the future. _Neverwhere_ was great, _Stardust_ is good, if flawed, but _Smoke and Mirrors_ is a bit too creepy for its own good. I hear he used to make comic books before he started writing. Lynn, I read the _Earthsea_ trilogy and enjoyed it immensly. I never managed to connect with anything else she’s written, though. **Havok** - I read the first 150 pages of _The Magic of Recluse_ while waiting for a flight at Amsterdam Airport. I finally gave up, shouting: “_You’re_ bored?! Think about ME!”. Sorry. **Mnementh** I read the first Pern book about 15 years ago, so I don’t remember much (although I do remember spotting the final time-travel twist about 20 pages before the rest of the characters). Should I read it again? I have a problem with tacked-on sequels, especially those with a keyword from the first one included (I’m still waiting for _Codpieces of Shannara_). That’s why I have an aversion from any new book with the word “Foundation”, “Pern” or “Dragons of-” in the title. Is pern a story, or a franchise? ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/33 "2001-01-11T16:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mnementh \* > Anne MacCaffery. Natch. Whoops. I’ve been assuming that Alessan’s screen name _came_ from the Pern books–the Lord Holder of Ruatha in _Moreta_ and _Nerilka’s Story_. I agree about Stephen Brust, BTW. The first few books in the Vlad series are really entertaining; they weaken considerably when they get political (I almost couldn’t finish _Teckla_), but seem to have picked up again with _Orca_. I find his prequels (_The Phoenix Guards_ and _Five Hundred Years After_) amusing, but I can see where they’d drive a lot of readers up the wall. “Chapter the Fourteenth, In Which the Plot, Much in the Manner of a Soup to Which Cornstarch Has Been Added, At Last Begins to Thicken” has to win the prize for the strangest chapter heading ever. Has anyone else noticed that all the Dragaera books have either 17 or 34 (2\*17) chapters? I guess 17 _is_ the mystical number. I like Hambly’s Darwath trilogy (_Time of the Dark_, etc), but the Windrose books are better, IMHO. Hambly’s evil Church themes get old, though (even for a Wiccan reader 🙂 ). Does this mean I have “feminine” tastes in fantasy? How odd. ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/34 "2001-01-11T16:47:57Z")
Since you don’t like Pern (you can read them again is you like I enjoy them but I suppose it is turning into a bit of a franchise with the TV show and the MUDs and MUSHes and stuff) and Eddings here’s another couple of series/books I enjoyed. _The Forever King/The Broken Sword_ by Molly Cochran and Warren Murphy Two novels set in today but having to do with King Arthur, reincarnation, the Holy Grail and stuff like that. Very different from any other Arthur novels I’ve read. I’ve found I also enjoyed their Atlantis novel as well. _The Keltiad_ by Patricia Kenneally Morrison (I might have spelt the name wrong its been awhile) It’s a series actually set on a planet called Keltia. Really interesting if you like Celtic stuff (There are also a few stand alones set there as well as a series of Arthur novels as well. Giving yet another spin to the story) Hope these help _runs off to Physics class_ ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/35 "2001-01-11T22:00:34Z")
Alessan posted the stats for George R.R. Martin: > [@](#): > > Hit Points? 400 > Armor Class? -8 > Attacks? 4/1 > Science Fiction Writer 18/Fantasy Writer 24 > ST:23 INT:25 WIS:25 CON:24 DEX:22 CHA:25 Ah, but Tiamat can do about 400 damage points if all 5 of her heads use their breath weapons at the same time. (Of course, Martin will only take half damage if he makes his saving throws.) ---
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/36 "2001-01-11T22:19:15Z")
I’m surprised the name hasn’t turned up yet - so maybe my taste in fantasy is crappier than I thought? - but Mickey Zucker Reichert has done some very good work also. I’m particularly fond of **The Legend of Nightfall** , though it’s somewhat distressing that AFAIK it’s a standalone work. His **Bifrost Guardians** series is pretty good as well, though it lacks some of the depth of Martin. Also worth checking out is the **Guardians of the Flame** series by Joel Rosenberg. It starts off (not to ruin anything) with the good ol’ “RPG gamers get sucked into the game they’re playing” storyline, but deals with it very well, IMHO. It’s a relatively short book (probably 280 pages or so), but leads into a fairly lengthy and well written series. Well, good luck on your quest for Martin caliber books - it’s a long road… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/37 "2001-01-11T22:30:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\ ***phouka, Lynn** - Gaiman is one of my greatest hopes for the future. _Neverwhere_ was great, _Stardust_ is good, if flawed, but _Smoke and Mirrors_ is a bit too creepy for its own good. I hear he used to make comic books before he started writing. > \*\* I’ve yet to pick up **Smoke and Mirrors** (waiting for some B&N gift certificates to come in), but I equate his graphic novels with his short stories. Largely because he didn’t “do” comics - he wrote them. AFAIK, he’s had a bunch of different artists actually do the art for them. Also, IMHO, there’s really no difference between comic books and writing - same art, different medium. They’re really good BTW. And, yes, **Neverwhere** was really good; **Good Omens** is as well, though it’s not as dark as his other work (Pratchett’s influence, I guess) though you can see his in some of the characters and dialogue. It’s always a fun ride with Gaiman… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/38 "2001-01-11T22:47:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Havok \* > \*\*Elizabeth Moon writes excellent fantasy, but I consider her to be only mediocre in SF. Fortunately, it’s pretty easy to tell which is which. > \*\* I second the vote for Elizabeth Moon- and I don’t usually like fantasy. Amusing story: a few years ago, I decided I really wanted to get into reading fantasy, since I usually only read sci-fi. At the bookstore, I saw **The Deed of Paksenarrion** , by Moon. I picked it up, and started reading. For those who haven’t read it, it’s what I like to call “Hard Fantasy”- it deals with the nitty gritty of living in a fantasy world. I absolutely loved it. The next Monday, I told my boss Ellen Guon (also a writer- has written a few stories by herself and with Mercedes Lackey) about this new book I’d started reading, and how much I was enjoying it. She just started laughing. When she finally calmed down, I found out why: Elizabeth Moon is a family friend of her husband’s, and he’s also a few of the characters in the book! Small world; there are really only about six people in its entirety. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/39 "2001-01-11T23:10:57Z")
Third vote checking in for Elizabeth Moon and **The Deed of Paksenarrion**. Excellent read with some of the same brutal realism that can be found in Martin’s books. Alessan, I know you’ve read Raymond Feist but if you haven’t read his **Daughter of the Empire** series I think you should take a second look. IMHO hands down the best in all of his works. And… if you’re not limiting yourself to only fantasy I highly recommend **Hyperion** and **The Fall of Hyperion** by Dan Simmons. Best Sci-Fi I’ve read. Grim\_Beaker ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362/40 "2001-01-11T23:42:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KKBattousai \* > \*\*but Mickey Zucker Reichert has done some very good work also. I’m particularly fond of **The Legend of Nightfall** , though it’s somewhat distressing that AFAIK it’s a standalone work. His **Bifrost Guardians** series is pretty good as well, though it lacks some of the depth of Martin. \*\* Mickey Zucker Reichert is actually a woman. I remember ICQing with someone who knew her really well. She was a part of her Monthly Writing Group. I agree that The Legend of Nightfall is really cool. Also try out Dave Duncan. He’s a bit softcore, but he has a great sense of adventure and humour. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fantasy-help-needed/49362.md?page=3)