# Farenheit 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723 "2004-06-16T20:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/201 "2004-06-29T05:35:04Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Actually, we do, because the people involved have told us. Well? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/202 "2004-06-29T05:56:40Z")
Ah, I’m not paying 30$ for a hardcover Woodward book just so I can go blabbing about the contents for free! Suffice to say, it was exactly the uncontroversial (to both sides) things suggested: that the nation was under attack. Not “the nation is under attack, but according to the constitution, you absolutely MUST complete your full scheduled appearance at this photo-op before you are allowed to do anything else as President.” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/203 "2004-06-29T06:46:34Z")
Two more thoughts about **Fahrenheit 9/11:** 1. In retrospect, anti-Moore critics like [BowlingForTruth.com](http://BowlingForTruth.com) are the best thing that’s happened to Michael Moore – they showed him that there’s a pack of folks out there, willing to jump on every exaggeration (real or imagined) and take him to carpet to it. I suspect this was part of the reason Moore went the extra mile with this movie to have his references cited and his lawyers nearby; the fact that Moore’s points in **F911** continue to withstand criticism after such a high-profile opening only works to his advantage. 2. It seems to me that Moore has just effectively counterprogrammed the main thrust of the Bush-Cheney campaign. I mean, it’s no surprise that Bush/Cheney/Rove had made plans months in advance for George to campaign as a staunch defender of the nation against terrorism; even last week, polls continued to show Bush rated higher than Kerry when folks are asked “Which candidate is better at protecting the nation against terrorism?” Moore, however, has completely undercut that effort by showing the seven-minute “My Pet Goat” video. The wheels have just fallen off Bush’s war-leader wagon, because no one who’s seen **Fahrenheit 9/11** is going to buy that argument any more. “Bush? Effective against terrorism? The guy sat in a classroom like a clueless idiot for seven minutes even after the _second_ plane hit the WTC!” ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/204 "2004-06-29T11:40:36Z")
First of all, only a tiny fraction of the American people have seen Farenheit 9-11, and not all of them buy Moore’s propaganda. Let’s not exaggerate here - seeing an obviously tendentious film from a guy with a stated agenda and a reputation of being unscrupulous with the facts will not derail “Bush’s war-leader wagon”. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/205 "2004-06-29T11:41:56Z")
Second, (heh, hit reply too soon) the charge that he sat for seven minutes afterwards (the obvious but ridiculous implication is that he sat there saying "eh, the WTC just got hit, who cares?) is rather silly. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/206 "2004-06-29T11:48:51Z")
[“Bush’s war-leader wagon”](http://www.hojo.com/HowardJohnson/images/image1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/207 "2004-06-29T12:09:37Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Second, (heh, hit reply too soon) the charge that he sat for seven minutes afterwards (the obvious but ridiculous implication is that he sat there saying "eh, the WTC just got hit, who cares?) is rather silly. I don’t think there is any such implication, rather he sat there reading to the children because he didn’t know what else to do. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/208 "2004-06-29T13:21:29Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > An example of where I’d give benefit of the doubt: the scene where Bush sits there after apparently being told about the second airplane impact. We don’t really know what was whispered in his ear. Actually we do know. The words were “A second plane has hit the World Trade Center. The nation is under attack”, or something to that effect. That was widely reported shortly after 9/11 and never challenged as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/209 "2004-06-29T13:40:21Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > First of all, only a tiny fraction of the American people have seen Farenheit 9-11, and not all of them buy Moore’s propaganda. Let’s not exaggerate here - seeing an obviously tendentious film from a guy with a stated agenda and a reputation of being unscrupulous with the facts will not derail “Bush’s war-leader wagon”. I like dreamin’ cause dreamin’ can make you mine. I like dreamin’, closing my eyes and feeling fine. When the lights go down, I’m holding you so tight. Got you in my arms and it’s paradise 'til the morning light. - Kenny Nolan ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/210 "2004-06-29T13:43:23Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > As for all that stuff, critics scoff at stuff like that, but the reality is that it’s something that I’ve never seen them be able to really look in the face or incorporate into their worldviews in any serious way other than to briefly acknowledge, hastily intone about, and then quickly push it away. It would be one thing if it were really a serious part of their worldview. But instead it’s something we are usually carefully insulated from. Our leaders and critics claim that it is all explicable, all worth it, and maybe it all is. Maybe Moore has no point. But you have to ask yourself: why then, is he the only one who makes any attempt to actually show any of it? And why do we end up having to hear it from a polemicist like him instead of it simply being part of a full and complete discourse? **Why do we have to rely on the President’s political enemies to be able to see even a few brief clips of these sorts of things?** Bolding mine. It’s that danged liberal media conspiracy again. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/211 "2004-06-29T13:44:00Z")
_“You were a good ol’ war-wagon Daddy, but you done broke down…”_ (with apologies to Bessie Smith…) Praise the Leader! ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/212 "2004-06-29T15:15:52Z")
> [@Snag](#): > > Also, the scene at the beginning where not one Democratic Senator would cast the single required vote from the Senate to, as I understood it, open procedural debates on Al Gore being denied the Presidency was disgusting to say the least. I’m not versed in Senatorial procedure, nor do I think that scene was very clear, but the impression I got was that the petition needed to be signed by a Senator from the state in question - Florida. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could clarify? ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/213 "2004-06-30T01:23:53Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I’m not versed in Senatorial procedure, nor do I think that scene was very clear, but the impression I got was that the petition needed to be signed by a Senator from the state in question - Florida. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could clarify? It was clear to me from the film that it needed the signature of any Senator, from any state. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/214 "2004-06-30T13:58:23Z")
Are you sure about that? Because I find it hard to believe that Lieberman didn’t sign it. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/215 "2004-06-30T15:20:15Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Are you sure about that? Because I find it hard to believe that Lieberman didn’t sign it. The impression I got from that segment of the film was that there were several petitions, not one of which was signed by a Senator - any Senator. I also got the idea that if a Senator had signed one of them, that petition would have been addressed by the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/216 "2004-06-30T16:01:47Z")
I believe it was mentioned elsewhere on the SDMB (In this thread? In the BBQ Pit?) that Gore specifically told his Democratic colleagues not to challenge the Florida results and to just “get over it.” Not that I agree with the decision, but it _was_ his campaign… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/217 "2004-06-30T16:15:30Z")
Was gonna lose anyway. The Republicans of the Florida Leg had already publicly announced that regardless of any recount after recount after recount, they were going to pass a Bush set of electors. This is their unassailable privilege, legally, they were on rock solid ground, no one but no one could successfully challenge thier authority, as the State Leg, to do so. After that, all Big Al could accomplish was to expose and demonstrate the ruthless moral bankruptcy of his opponents, already in abundant evidence. James Baker: I’ve bad news, Mr. Damn-Sure-_Gonna_-Be-President: we have determined that the only way to ensure your inauguration is to sell you mother into prostitution in a Shanghai bordello, to be repeatedly ravished by swarthy men from all over the globe… GeeDubya: Darn! I’m sure gonna miss her! ---
**Author:** ![Live\_Better\_Electrically](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@Live\_Better\_Electrically](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Live_Better_Electrically)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/218 "2004-06-30T23:07:10Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Let’s not exaggerate here - seeing an obviously tendentious film from a guy with a stated agenda and a reputation of being unscrupulous with the facts will not derail “Bush’s war-leader wagon”. Are you sure? I’m puzzled by detractors’ view that Moore’s bias and alleged errors negate his entire message. The anti-F9/11 effort seems fixated on ferretting out a verifiable factual error so they can claim the entire film should be dismissed. I wish these people would lead me to their perfect source for news and commentary that has no bias and never errs. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/219 "2004-07-01T00:02:57Z")
To tell the truth, I haven’t read this entire thread, but I just saw the film this morning and I felt like commenting. Disclaimer: I’m as liberal as they come. My heart bleeds daily. I believe whole (bleeding) heartedly that it _does_takes a village. I do nothing _but_ think of the children. If Michael Moore were right here in front of me, I’d plant a big juicy tongue kiss right on his fat unshaven face. Just so we’re square. I thought the movie was very effective for the undoubtedly factual images shown. The pictures of dead babies and children with massive head wounds, and village woman cursing the USA in the name of Allah, the woman crying (constantly for the last 30 minutes of the film) over her lost son … all that is what drove my (admittedly) anti-war, anti-Bush buttons. However … > [@](#): > > _rjung said:_ > \*\*Moore, however, has completely undercut that effort \*\*_(of Bush’s effective against terrorism campaign)_ **by showing the seven-minute “My Pet Goat” video. The wheels have just fallen off Bush’s war-leader wagon, because no one who’s seen Fahrenheit 9/11 is going to buy that argument any more. "Bush? Effective against terrorism? The guy sat in a classroom like a clueless idiot for seven minutes even after the second plane hit the WTC!"** I disagree. This was the one part of the film that had me cringing in a “Michael, Michael, Michael … what the fuck are you thinking kind of way.” My take on that whole seven (or whatever) minutes is of a man completely freaked out. Sitting there contemplating the fate of the nation he just took over leading. Thinking about the loss of life and the direction on which he was about to embark. I mean, Christ, … if someone comes into a room and tells you your mom just died in a car accident, your first thought is not of the funeral arrangements, you know? The fact that Moore supposed what Bush was thinking while he sat there, while pertinent to the points he was to make in the rest of the movie, seemed entirely petty to me. He could have completely left that editorializing out, and still made his points well. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723/220 "2004-07-01T00:18:25Z")
> [@Jack Batty](#): > > My take on that whole seven (or whatever) minutes is of a man completely freaked out. Sitting there contemplating the fate of the nation he just took over leading. Thinking about the loss of life and the direction on which he was about to embark. > > I mean, Christ, … if someone comes into a room and tells you your mom just died in a car accident, your first thought is not of the funeral arrangements, you know? I don’t know. He was informed at least once, probably in the motorcade, of the first attack. He hears from Card in the classroom about the second attack. Granted there are maybe 150 people in the room besides the teacher and the schoolkids, a gaggle of reporters documenting your every move, etc. I think Michael does have a point about Bush’s paralysis at that point being a damning statement on this administration’s complete unpreparedness in dealing with an actual terrorist attack. He was sitting there to begin with; he heard the news and still sat there. Then he still hung around the school in the room next door for several MORE minutes before finally getting back to the motorcade to board Air Force One. Granted, it was stunning, terrible news. But unlike you or I, the president had been briefed for weeks to expect something like this. To not even ask questions about the attack seems to clarify the news he’s just receieved… seems wrong. BuuuUUUut we can all rest assured the REAL president (Cheney) was probably all over this, even as he was being whisked away from the White House by the Scret Service. Heh heh heh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-9-11/250723.md?page=12)