# Farenheit 911 Scores Perfect Zero-No Oscars for Michael **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701 "2005-01-26T03:37:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/121 "2005-01-27T17:34:31Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Once you make a choice what to point the camera at and what is cut out or what is cut together to create a narrative you have made a subjective piece of film. It is impossible to make a documentary that is objective. Even if you have no narration playing connect the dots you still have a message by what you show. To which, I can only repeat, “Very, very true!”. However, we are not talking about reality, but ideals. Not what real ‘documentaries’ used to be, but what a documentary film must be. To paraphrase your statement to describe war: _Once you make a choice where to point a gun at whom to shoot and whom to spare to achieve military victory, you have made a subjective act of violence. It is impossible to have violence that is objective. Even if you have no propaganda going, you still have a message by what you do._ So, why people bother to insist on having wars that are just and less bloody? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/122 "2005-01-27T17:37:38Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I don’t recall hearing anything about torture and atrocities in the American Revolutionary War. Since we are on the subject of movies, you can start with “[The Patriot](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=patriot+movie+gibson)”. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/123 "2005-01-27T17:38:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > To paraphrase your statement to describe war: > > _Once you make a choice where to point a gun at whom to shoot and whom to spare to achieve military victory, you have made a subjective act of violence. It is impossible to have violence that is objective. Even if you have no propaganda going, you still have a message by what you do._ > > So, why people bother to insist on having wars that are just and less bloody? Because, while ideals are often impossible to reach, they are still worthy of the attempt. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/124 "2005-01-27T17:47:17Z")
**elucidator** --thank you for post #103. ITA. Back to thread. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/125 "2005-01-27T17:54:06Z")
> [@WernhamHogg](#): > > And material in any format that WOULD fill a volume is a book – or so say the treacherous weasels who want yesterday’s words to meet the needs of today’s high-tech world. WernhamHogg, why is your location not listed a Slough? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/126 "2005-01-27T18:18:46Z")
Good Idea, TwistOfFate. Fixed. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/127 "2005-01-27T19:09:39Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > “Cleave” can mean either “to bring together” or “to break apart”. And you can do both with cleavage. Repeatedly. And it’s fun. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/128 "2005-01-27T19:11:48Z")
It isn’t that tough a concept, folks: _movie categories_ don’t always neatly match up with _dictionary definitions_. But movies apparently have to be placed in some sort of category so that everyone from the Academy to IMDB knows what to call them, and Hollywood has no category for “polemic” or “op-ed in cinematic form”. So they place _F9/11_ in the “documentary” category, and [michaelmoore.com](http://michaelmoore.com) acknowledges this: “Michael Moore, the acclaimed filmmaker and #1 best-selling author whose latest movie, Fahrenheit 9/11, is the highest-grossing documentary of all time.” And this means Moore’s claiming that _F9/11_’s a documentary in the dictionary-definition sense, or somehow “having it both ways”? Of course not. He’s calling it a documentary with respect to how Hollywood categorizes its films for purpose of comparison, but that’s because it fits no other existing category better. And he’s apparently been clear that it’s _not_ a documentary in the dictionary-definition sense. So what’s the problem? There’s no contradiction here. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/129 "2005-01-27T19:21:48Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > To which, I can only repeat, “Very, very true!”. > > However, we are not talking about reality, but ideals. Not what real ‘documentaries’ used to be, but what a documentary film must be. > > To paraphrase your statement to describe war: > > _Once you make a choice where to point a gun at whom to shoot and whom to spare to achieve military victory, you have made a subjective act of violence. It is impossible to have violence that is objective. Even if you have no propaganda going, you still have a message by what you do._ > > So, why people bother to insist on having wars that are just and less bloody? What a load of fetted crap. It is nice to have ideals on what something should be, but the claim is that Moore’s film was not a documentary not that documenaties should try to reach some ideal asthetic. My claim is that if one uses that ideal to judge his film as not being a documentary then we have to discount every film under the heading documentary for also failing to meet that criteria. Now if you want to set up some system that judges what degree a film meets that criteria you still have trouble, because that scale is also subjective based on how much you believe what the film maker is saying is the truth. What those who hate his film fail to grasp when they say stupid things like it is not a documentary is that most of us who appreciate the film are not mindless morons accepting everything as the absolute God’s own truth. It reminds me of Creationists who believe that if they attack one bit of an evolution argument the whole Therory should be thrown out. Michael Moore is biased, yes, does it change the fact that the United States is now fighting in a war that they entered for a reason which proves to be wrong? (Remember this was sold as a defensive war agaisnt a nation building up WMDs threatening the saftey and security of the world) By the way your war analogy is just nonsense. As there is no definitive definition of a Just war so what is it you trying to prove to me? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/130 "2005-01-27T19:29:28Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Because, while ideals are often impossible to reach, they are still worthy of the attempt. Same applies to making better documentary films. Clearly, Moors film did nothing to improve the genre, quite the contrary. F911 utterly fails in comparison to other documentary films, however imperfect, that were listed here before. Including even “Triumph of Will”. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/131 "2005-01-27T19:40:59Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Same applies to making better documentary films. > > Clearly, Moors film did nothing to improve the genre, quite the contrary. F911 utterly fails in comparison to other documentary films, however imperfect, that were listed here before. Including even “Triumph of Will”. By what criteria do you make that claim? What is it that other Documentaries have that Moores film doesn’t aside from an opposing view point to what you believe? Wait forget that, give me the breakdown of why “Triumph of the will” is a superior documentary to F 9/11. I know this ain’t great debates but Aside from a blanket statement why don’t you just go and back it up? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/132 "2005-01-27T20:13:16Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > …give me the breakdown of why “Triumph of the will” is a superior documentary to F 9/11. Because within its limits, “ToW” is honest film. It shows what was happening in Germany in 1930-s. There is no insinuation, no conspiracy hints, what you see is what you get. The film is open to interpretation. Fascist apologist can look at it and say, “What a magnificent spectacle!” Anti-fascist can see it and say, “This is ant hill on acid! We need to fumigate, but quick!” If Moore did something comparable to that, if instead of concocting conspiracy theories he would go to anti-war rallies and shot continuous honest footage, that would be honest film. But many wouldn’t like that, because it would open the anti-war protestors to independent evaluation. It would show them as a deluded bunch of pathetic, incoherent, utterly stupid overfed slimebuckets they are. That Moore couldn’t allow himself to do. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/133 "2005-01-27T20:14:04Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Since we are on the subject of movies, you can start with “[The Patriot](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=patriot+movie+gibson)”. I dunno about you, **Isk,** but when I learned about American history, we used textbooks, not dipstick summer movies [riddled with errors.](http://www.moviemistakes.com/printfilm958) (I especially love the $5 bill screwup) ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/134 "2005-01-27T20:23:38Z")
This just in from the IMDB > [@](#): > > The motion picture academy has changed its rules applying to documentaries, allowing them to qualify for Oscar consideration even if they are shown on television, provided that they are given a minimum of 25 commercial theatrical exhibitions in 15 states. Previous rules had barred films from being considered in the documentary category if they were shown on television within nine months after they appeared in theaters. Had these rules been in effect last year, Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11 would almost certainly have received a nomination in the documentary category. It was disqualified when it was shown on cable TV on election eve. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/135 "2005-01-27T20:26:22Z")
Hardly matters. The textbooks lied as well. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/136 "2005-01-27T20:39:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hardly matters. The textbooks lied as well. Indeed. My fourth-grade Virginia history textbook conveyed the notion that the slaves were happy as slaves, and freedom only made them discontented. And I’m trying to remember what, if anything, we learned in shcool about the history of the labor union movement. We certainly didn’t hear about National Guardsmen shooting union activists. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/137 "2005-01-27T20:40:17Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Because within its limits, “ToW” is honest film. It shows what was happening in Germany in 1930-s. Ah yes, all the explorations into racial and political oppression that were part of the National Socialist movement. That’s always been my favorite part of the Riefenstahl film. :rolleyes: Even the title of the film is dishonest, as it implies (as does the whole movie) that people from all corners of Germany were unified into following a man who rose to prominence from the unilateral will of the people (whereas I suspect there were some pretty significant percentages of the population who weren’t exactly falling into lockstep quite so easily). The film works terrifically as propoganda because there’s very little in the movie that anti-fascists can actually cling to as “evidence” devoid of any context, and _TotW_ reductively eliminates all context quite effectively. This is why it’s as remarkable as it is insidious. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/138 "2005-01-27T21:02:47Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Because within its limits, “ToW” is honest film. It shows what was happening in Germany in 1930-s. There is no insinuation, no conspiracy hints, what you see is what you get. The film is open to interpretation. Fascist apologist can look at it and say, “What a magnificent spectacle!” Anti-fascist can see it and say, “This is ant hill on acid! We need to fumigate, but quick!” Ok now I’m guessing you haven’t seen Triumph of the Will and are talking out of your ass. The film was designed to show the solidarity and might of the Nazi party under Hitler. Also it was to present German support for the movement and its might before the world. Critic of Nazi party or not, the film gave the same impression to each viewer when it came out. And it just used one rally to do this. If it were objective on the level you hold Moore to then it might have also showed Germans who didn’t support Hitler at the time, the Jews living under the repressive laws and the fear they lived under. They could have also shown that the Depression actually did have an effect on the nation and that its military might, at the time of the filming was not what they pretended it was. Of course those facts are left out because it counters the message. > [@New Iskander](#): > > If Moore did something comparable to that, if instead of concocting conspiracy theories he would go to anti-war rallies and shot continuous honest footage, that would be honest film. But many wouldn’t like that, because it would open the anti-war protestors to independent evaluation. It would show them as a deluded bunch of pathetic, incoherent, utterly stupid overfed slimebuckets they are. That Moore couldn’t allow himself to do Oh that explains it. He didn’t want to show Decent God fearin’ Republicans that anyone who was against the war was some “pathetic, incoherent, utterly stupid overfed slimebucket” lest it keep them from questioning the War and the methods of the administration. Well thank goodness you are so objective on the matter that you can see past Moore’s B.S. It is obvious in your world an objective documentary = “supports your world view”. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/139 "2005-01-27T21:04:28Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Same applies to making better documentary films. > > Clearly, Moors film did nothing to improve the genre, quite the contrary. F911 utterly fails in comparison to other documentary films, however imperfect, that were listed here before. Including even “Triumph of Will”. And it’s perfectly legitimate to criticize the quality of the film on that point, but it still doesn’t remove it from the documentary category. “Objectivity” is not the sole measuring stick of the greatness of a doc, though it can certainly have a profound effect. This comes far more into play when the filmmaker tries to deliberately disguise their subjectivity. I don’t think Moore did this, which doesn’t neccesarily excuse it, but must be taken into account. In fact, I think it’s far more honest to lay it out there. Of course, the effectiveness of the film is then directly tied to how much you agree with the filmmaker’s assertions, but it’s a deliberate risk he took. Would you rather have filmmaker’s motivations in things like Triumph of the Will hidden, or laid out for you to see, as in F 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/140 "2005-01-27T21:06:55Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Ah yes, all the explorations into racial and political oppression that were part of the National Socialist movement. That’s always been my favorite part of the Riefenstahl film. > > :rolleyes: Ahem. I said “within its limits”, remember? But don’t just take my word for it, here’s [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) Editorial Review: [Riefenstahl was hired by the Reich to create an eternal record of the 1934 rally at Nuremberg, and that’s exactly what she does.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004WLXZ/ref=ase_bookstorenow31-20/002-5300023-6481655) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701.md?page=8)