# Farenheit 911 Scores Perfect Zero-No Oscars for Michael **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701 "2005-01-26T03:37:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/141 "2005-01-27T21:18:45Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Ahem. I said “within its limits”, remember? But don’t just take my word for it, here’s [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) Editorial Review: > > [Riefenstahl was hired by the Reich to create an eternal record of the 1934 rally at Nuremberg, and that’s exactly what she does.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004WLXZ/ref=ase_bookstorenow31-20/002-5300023-6481655) Focus doesn’t equal objectivity. She selected images for maximum impact and to fit a pre-determined idea, while disguising true motives. I would hardly call this honest. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/142 "2005-01-27T21:55:20Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > TPOTC should win for Best Cinematography because it was beautifully shot, but otherwise it was a nasty slice of anti-Jewish hate propaganda. Are you saying the New Testament is anti-Jewish hate propaganda? Not that I really care, I’m just curious. TPOTC, to me, was a really bad movie because Gibson went overboard on the violence, to the point of simple gratuity. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/143 "2005-01-27T22:02:04Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Are you saying the New Testament is anti-Jewish hate propaganda? Parts of it are exactly that. Gibson didn’t just base his film on the Gospels, though, but on Anne Emmerich’s _Dolorous Passion_, which is rife with anti-semitism. That devil wasn’t in the gospel accounts, you know. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/144 "2005-01-27T22:09:08Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > And it’s perfectly legitimate to criticize the quality of the film on that point, but it still doesn’t remove it from the documentary category. OK, it doesn’t. > [@Raygun99](#): > > Would you rather have filmmaker’s motivations in things like Triumph of the Will hidden, or laid out for you to see, as in F 9/11? I start with another quate from [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) Editorial Review: [You might not become a Nazi after watching her film, but you will understand too clearly how Germany fell under Hitler’s spell.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004WLXZ/ref=ase_bookstorenow31-20/002-5300023-6481655) I never had problem misinterpreting “ToW”. To me, it was a perfect picture of Fascism in fever pitch. I grew up in decaying fascist state and was subjected to similar propaganda assaults. Yes, Evil can be mesmerizing. Those who think “ToW” is at all concocted picture of real life in Germany in 1930-s, need to learn much more about Fascism. Granted, the film does not show the SS in action behind the scenes. Well, I know it’s there. I know when you see mass hysteria filling the whole cities, horrible things happen without notice to those who even hesitate to join the mob. This needs to be accepted as an axiom: when you see something like Nurnberg 1934 Nazi rally (or Saddam glorifications), remember the unknown victims. That’s why when I hear, “Bush is an Idiot, jackboots are coming, just watch F911!”, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. All Moore had to do to convince me that 'jackboots are coming" was to show continuous footage of mindless mass self-negation and adoration of the Leader. Much as he tried, he couldn’t scrape a few seconds of that. Well, might be enough to send **rjung** screaming into the night, but not for me. If there are dangers to American way of life, they lie elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/145 "2005-01-27T22:27:47Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Are you saying the New Testament is anti-Jewish hate propaganda? Not that I really care, I’m just curious. Like **DtC** said, parts of it are. Notably Jesus’ opponents in the Gospel of John being lumped together as “the Jews”, rather than just the scribes and Pharisees (per the synoptic Gospels). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/146 "2005-01-27T22:35:38Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > All Moore had to do to convince me that 'jackboots are coming" was to show continuous footage of mindless mass self-negation and adoration of the Leader. Much as he tried, he couldn’t scrape a few seconds of that. OK, here’s the testimony of [Paul Craig Roberts](http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=76&ItemID=7056), former WSJ and National Review editor: > [@](#): > > I remember when friends would excitedly telephone to report that Rush Limbaugh or G. Gordon Liddy had just read one of my syndicated columns over the air. That was before I became a critic of the US invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration, and the neoconservative ideologues who have seized control of the US government. > \ > In the ranks of the new conservatives, however, I see and experience much hate. It comes to me in violently worded, ignorant and irrational emails from self-professed conservatives who literally worship George Bush. Even Christians have fallen into idolatry. There appears to be a large number of Americans who are prepared to kill anyone for George Bush. > > The Iraqi War is serving as a great catharsis for multiple conservative frustrations: job loss, drugs, crime, homosexuals, pornography, female promiscuity, abortion, restrictions on prayer in public places, Darwinism and attacks on religion. Liberals are the cause. Liberals are against America. Anyone against the war is against America and is a liberal. “You are with us or against us.” > > This is the mindset of delusion, and delusion permits no facts or analysis. Blind emotion rules. Americans are right and everyone else is wrong. End of the debate. > \ > Like Brownshirts, the new conservatives take personally any criticism of their leader and his policies. To be a critic is to be an enemy. I went overnight from being an object of conservative adulation to one of derision when I wrote that the US invasion of Iraq was a “strategic blunder.” Obviously, one man’s experience alone won’t convince you. But I expect he won’t be the last. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/147 "2005-01-27T23:33:25Z")
This year’s likely winner, and my favorite doc of the year (even over F-911), was Morgan Spurlock’s _Super Size Me_. I’m not sure, but I think there may have been a bit of an agenda on the part of the filmmakers in that one. Last year’s winner, _The Fog of War_, is nothing but editorializing. It’s clear that the people who make and study films do not consider having a particular slant to be something that pushes a movie out of the documentary category. The fact that their definition of the genre does not jive with a particular dictionary definition of “documentary” does not mean that they are wrong, or that the dictionary is wrong; it means that the definition of the genre used by the film community is not based on that particular definition. It would be interesting to see this discussion in a world in which Michael Moore does not exist; I’m sure a lot of opinions would be different. As it is, it’s just another way for the right to avoid addressing the points made by the movie. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/148 "2005-01-28T01:10:43Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, here’s the testimony of [Paul Craig Roberts](http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=76&ItemID=7056), former WSJ and National Review editor: > > Obviously, one man’s experience alone won’t convince you. But I expect he won’t be the last. And I bet that when he was still a “good conservative” he received his equal share of hate mail from the Left. Look, I’ve been to conservative forums and I know what happens when you challenge basic assumptions there. On average, they are probably somewhat more vicious then lefties, but not by much. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/149 "2005-01-28T01:35:58Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > Last year’s winner, _The Fog of War_, is nothing but editorializing. Thank you. That is why I brought it up earlier in this thread. There is really only one voice in that film. McNamara IS the movie. Is it completely one sided and loaded with one opinion? Yes. Does it fit into the documentary genre? Yes and a very interesting one to boot although I disagree with a large amount of McNamara’s arguments. F9/11 is loaded with Moore’s political POV. It is what it is. Like it or hate it. One thing is certain though it fits very easily into the documentary genre. I can’t quite understand why people argue this point. There are many things to debate about Moore’s POV and how he chose to put it across but to deny it’s a documentary is just idiocy IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/150 "2005-01-28T22:49:22Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Somehow this seems like a proper serving of poetic justice to man overly full of himself. [The Academy speaks.](http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=3117) Alright, apparently attacking you only made you feel better about yourself, so how’s about this: It’s a documentary. So it’s not going to get any acting awards no matter what. Or makeup awards. Or writing awards. Or sound, technology, or editing awards. Or cinematography awards. It couldn’t get Foreign Film because it’s not foreign. It wasn’t animated, so it’s ineligible for that too. There were two possible awards it could’ve won: Best Documentary, which (as noted many times) Moore intentionally made it ineligible for, and Best Picture, which was never gonna happen for _any_ documentary. If you think Moore is full of himself, this isn’t going to change anything, because the movie made a shitload of money (smashing the record for a documentary, which he set earlier with _Bowling for Columbine_) and won a number of other awards. So please, chill and think about what the award nominations actually mean. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/151 "2005-01-28T23:11:35Z")
No, Marley. Dances has a point. The snub not only proves Moore is wrong, it proves Bush is right. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/152 "2005-01-28T23:16:30Z")
No, the snub just proved Moore is wrong. The recent landslide proved Bush was right. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/153 "2005-01-28T23:32:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s a documentary. So it’s not going to get any acting awards no matter what. Or makeup awards. Or writing awards. Or sound, technology, or editing awards. Or cinematography awards… There were two possible awards it could’ve won: Best Documentary, which (as noted many times) Moore intentionally made it ineligible for, and Best Picture, which was never gonna happen for _any_ documentary. There have been documentaries in the past that have been nominated (and sometimes won) for sound, cinematography, editing, and writing. On what basis can you say that _F9/11_ had absolutely no chance in these categories? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/154 "2005-01-29T02:09:07Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And I bet that when he was still a “good conservative” he received his equal share of hate mail from the Left. Look, I’ve been to conservative forums and I know what happens when you challenge basic assumptions there. On average, they are probably somewhat more vicious then lefties, but not by much. Odd that he doesn’t mention that, given that he’s still not anyone’s idea of a lefty. But that’s beside the point. You said Moore couldn’t scrape up a few seconds of mindless adoration of the Leader. I pointed out someone who could - and someone who you should find credible, even if you don’t find Moore so. FWIW, we lefties don’t even _have_ a ‘Leader’ to get all worshipful over. Hateful or not, we’re a cantankerous lot who usually lose because we can’t do that sorta mind-meld. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/155 "2005-01-29T02:23:00Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > FWIW, we lefties don’t even _have_ a ‘Leader’ to get all worshipful over. That might be true for American lefties, only. It might be true for all Americans, too. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Hateful or not, we’re a cantankerous lot who usually lose because we can’t do that sorta mind-meld. That’s why I like you so much. And you don’t really lose anything, imo. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/156 "2005-01-29T02:35:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …If you think Moore is full of himself, this isn’t going to change anything, because the movie made a shitload of money… I heard Rush Limbaugh did pretty good for himself during Clinton years… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/157 "2005-01-29T04:10:53Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > There have been documentaries in the past that have been nominated (and sometimes won) for sound, cinematography, editing, and writing. Name three. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/158 "2005-01-29T04:58:21Z")
You had to say three, huh? Woodstock received nominations for Sound and Editing in 1969, while Hoop Dreams received one for editing in 1994. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/159 "2005-01-29T07:15:52Z")
I get the suspicion that if **Fahrenheit 9/11** _had_ been nominated for Best Cinematography or Best Lighting or whatever, the resident righties would be bleating that the film didn’t have any noteworthy cinematography/lighting/whatever and didn’t deserve the nomination. Let’s face the simple facts: whatever nominations **F9/11** did or didn’t get, the right-wing nutjobs would have found something to bleat about anyway. _"Frowny day for cultural warriors. They had been hoping that Fahrenheit 9/11 would be nominated for best pic Oscar so that they could rise on their hind legs and_ j’accuse _Hollywood liberals for hating America, then lick their chops over Michael Moore’s possible acceptance speech, storing up their indignation for the big event."_ –[James Wolcott](http://jameswolcott.com/archives/2005/01/foiled_again_1.php) ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701/160 "2005-01-29T07:54:16Z")
Well, as I said before, Hollywood would rather eat its young than ever try to have too much controversey surrounding it. During the Red scare the blacklistings of artists in the 50s was a nice example, the Hayes codes were another attempt to avoid the scary glare of government. Business is business and controversey, while good for generating interest during a films run, is bad in the long term. The Oscars are part of that long Term [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farenheit-911-scores-perfect-zero-no-oscars-for-michael/286701.md?page=9)