# Farewell, Terry Schiavo **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 24, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419 "2005-01-24T16:01:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/41 "2005-02-27T03:50:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, playing devil’s advocate here…couldn’t the same be said of the doctors who are saying Terri is a turnip and pulling her feeding tube will do nothing more than allow her body to join her soul? I suppose so. I tend to believe those who say her condition is irreversible and she is in a PVS based on what I know about anoxic brain injury, the fact that she hasn’t improved in fifteen years, and the facts that I’ve heard from both sides in following the case over several years. I just haven’t seen convincing evidence that she isn’t in a PVS, and plenty that she is. Those videos are probably the one thing that has kept this case going for so long. However, people in a PVS can appear to be interacting, smiling, or laughing, but these things are not consistent or reproducible. I actually looked at the videos the other way–if this is the most interaction she is capable of after fifteen years, she’s in pretty bad shape. Again, all of this is beside the point. She is in a state in which it would be a reasonable choice not to be kept alive artificially. I don’t see how anyone could argue that. Her husband has the right (and the responsibility, IMO) to make that choice, and that is spelled out very clearly in Florida law. This should never have been an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/42 "2005-02-27T07:19:48Z")
> [@archmichael](#): > > The latest interview I saw of the parents, they actually hinted that foul play was involved and the husband might have had a hand in it. Damn, that sounds like grounds for a slander suit right there. Besides, I believe her heart attack happened because she was anorexic. What did he do-hide all the food from her? There aren’t enough :rolleyes: s in the world for these people. ---
**Author:** ![hlanelee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@hlanelee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hlanelee)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/43 "2005-02-27T09:03:57Z")
I was actually brain damaged in an automobile accident in 1995. I was in a coma for four days and delusional for a month after I woke up. My recovery has been complete but it has been to say the least **HELLISH**. I was unable to walk without assistance or able to meet my own personal hygiene needs for about one year (I really wish I had been more pleasant every time I had had to ask my wife to wipe my ass). I required constant attention and was unable to exist as an individual for three years. Many times I wished that I had passed the point of no return before they found me in the ditch that morning. I have been informed that my idea of a prominent tattoo **DNR** on my chest would not work, in SC EMT’s are required to do CPR until a doctor declares (so I am told). I literally woke up in July 1995 to learn that the month of June had happened in my absence, I think that losing a decade and a half would be unbearable in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/44 "2005-02-27T15:22:27Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > I’m confused. I’ve seen video of the woman and she appears (very strongly) to be smiling and reacting to people. It looks like she’s quite aware of her environment. What exactly defines PVS? Does it just mean not able to talk and take care of yourself? According to her husband, those tapes have been heavily edited. So while you may see Terri’s eyes follow the balloon, you don’t see the other 42 times they waved a balloon in her face and she stared at the wall. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/45 "2005-02-27T15:24:29Z")
But **hlanelee** , you came out of it. Are you saying the year in recovery was not worth it? I know your situation was much different than poor Terri’s. If you had it to do all over again, do you wish you’d had a living will in place? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/46 "2005-02-27T15:37:19Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > But **hlanelee** , you came out of it. Are you saying the year in recovery was not worth it? > > I know your situation was much different than poor Terri’s. If you had it to do all over again, do you wish you’d had a living will in place? He was in a coma for four days. His diagnosis and prognosis were entirely different from Terry Schiavo’s. From his story as told, there is absolutely no reason anyone in the hospital would have thought he was a hopeless case. Terry Schiavo has been in a coma for fifteen years. Her diagnosis (at least in part via CAT scan) indicates that most of her cerebrum is GONE. Non-existent. Her prognosis is zilch. There’s a significant difference between her case and **hlanelee** ’s. I don’t think ANYONE is trying to foment some “all-coma-sufferers-need-to-be-euthanized” doctrine here. Comas come in many different flavors and prognoses. It’s not like this woman just ended up in the hospital last weekend and everyone’s clamoring to kill her. She’s been there for FIFTEEN YEARS! The majority medical opinion is that she’s never going to recover because she has no brain. Right now, all that the life support is actually accomplishing is making Mr. & Mrs. Schindler feel better and preventing Michael Schiavo from getting any emotional closure whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/47 "2005-02-27T15:45:15Z")
Has Terri had no hope of recovery since the beginning? I think I read somewhere the court battle has only been going on for seven years, and she’s been in a coma for 15. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/48 "2005-02-27T16:14:42Z")
Most people who recover from comas do so within 3-4 days. Persistent vegetative states are generally considered to be permanent after three months. Terri probably hasn’t had any real hope for recovery from the beginning, but it isn’t easy to know that until you’ve given it time. Her CT scan findings clinch it now, but those developed over several years, as the dead brain cells were reabsorbed. The damage was done, but the dead cells themselves would have still been there. And just to be clear, Terri is NOT in a coma. A persistent vegetative state is an entirely different animal. ---
**Author:** ![hlanelee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@hlanelee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hlanelee)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/49 "2005-02-27T17:13:45Z")
> [@](#): > > I know your situation was much different than poor Terri’s. If you had it to do all over again, do you wish you’d had a living will in place? I have a living will now. At the time Mrs.lanelee ordered life support removed after 4 days. As she put it, "I put you in God’s hands, you would live or you would die, but you would not be a potted plant. People don’t generally carry living wills on their person. I was found in the ditch, given CPR to the nearest ER, and put on a respirator before anyone knew. As I said, my recovery time was **HELLISH** at best. For much of the past decade, I wish I had died by the side of the road. But I lived, I got better, I study engineering, I am a better man now!!! I buried Mrs.lanelee last June. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/50 "2005-02-27T20:03:47Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > I’m confused. I’ve seen video of the woman and she appears (very strongly) to be smiling and reacting to people. The thing about the videos is that there’s five or ten minutes of them. Out of fifteen _years_ of being taped, and Og knows how many hours of footage, they’ve only got a few minutes to show how alert and reactive she is. That simply doesn’t add up. If she was as responsive as they claim, there would be hours and hours of footage of her responding to stuff. And if her family had hours and hours of footage like that, they would release an entire tape, not just a few snippets here and there and a few carefully-chosen stills. It’s a case of, as you say, her appearing to be reacting to people. Appearances and reality, however, are often not the same thing. You can present any particular slice of reality to appear any old way you want, really. I can point at a busted watch at exactly the time it stopped and say, “See, it’s still keeping perfect time!” Doesn’t mean my watch works. I can take a picture of my cat when she’s rolling on her back like she wants a tummy rub to show just how sweet and cuddlesome she is, provided I don’t show the pictures of her biting you when you rub her tummy or her hissing and swatting at people. The rolling and tummy-baring don’t mean she’s not a pissy antisocial little creature. I can eat five eggs and eight waffles with all the trimmings along with a half-gallon of ice cream for breakfast, then declare at dinner that I’ve stayed on my diet, because I haven’t had anything to eat since breakfast. Doesn’t mean I haven’t eaten far more calories in that one meal than I should have had all day. And Terri Shiavo’s parents can take a few minutes where she coincidentally moves or vocalizes at the same time something else happens and say, “See, she knows we’re here! She’s trying to talk to us!” Doesn’t mean their daughter is responsive. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/51 "2005-02-27T20:19:10Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > And just to be clear, Terri is NOT in a coma. A persistent vegetative state is an entirely different animal. I guess my question now is really - what is a pvs? How is it different from a coma or just being severely brain damaged? Let me know if you think I should take this to GQ. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/52 "2005-02-27T20:32:20Z")
A patient in a coma is unaware of the environment and unarousable. Someone in a PVS is similarly unaware, but is arousable and has normal sleep-wake cycles. The best description I’ve heard is “wakefulness without awareness”. These criteria are used to define PVS: > [@](#): > > No evidence of awareness of self or environment and an inability to interact with others > > No evidence of sustained, reproducible, purposeful, or voluntary behavioral responses to visual, auditory, tactile, or noxious stimuli > > No evidence of language comprehension or expression > > Intermittent wakefulness manifested by the presence of sleep-wake cycles > > Sufficiently preserved hypothalamic and brain stem autonomic function to permit survival with medical and nursing care > > Bowel and bladder incontinence > > Variably preserved cranial nerve reflexes and spinal reflexes (This is from UpToDate, a subscription health professional resource, so no link.) There’s a lot of wiggle room in that definition. There’s also the issue that, like all such definitions in medicine, its major purpose is to carefully define patients for studies, so even if she did not technically meet these criteria for a PVS, it doesn’t mean that her prognosis is any better. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/53 "2005-02-28T18:32:13Z")
Her parents claim that Michael withheld therapy at the beginning that could have saved her. Is this possible? You mention the brain cells were absorbed as time went on. So after three months that would have been it? Then why wait another seven years before seeking to pull her feeding tube? I don’t understand the parents’ motivation. If they truly are that delusional, then I feel very sorry for them. But I wonder if there’s not something else going on. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/54 "2005-03-02T00:42:05Z")
[Schaivo’s parents seek divorce for Terry.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=6&u=/ap/20050301/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_5) _sigh_ Apparently, they’re too Catholic to let her die in peace, but not Catholic enough to seek divorce for her? I understand that this is their daughter, but haven’t they had grief counseling? ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/55 "2005-03-02T00:54:36Z")
\*\*DoctorJ \*\* thanks for your explanation of pvs vs coma. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/56 "2005-03-02T01:43:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > [Schaivo’s parents seek divorce for Terry.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=6&u=/ap/20050301/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_5) > > _sigh_ Apparently, they’re too Catholic to let her die in peace, but not Catholic enough to seek divorce for her? > > I understand that this is their daughter, but haven’t they had grief counseling? Apparently, the unfortunate lack of brain function is not limited solely to Terri. :rolleyes: As I said earlier, desperate moves by desperate people. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/57 "2005-03-02T01:46:14Z")
_The previous post was not intended as a swipe at **Guinastasia**._ ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/58 "2005-03-02T02:01:47Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Who thinks to fill out a living will when you’re young and healthy? I have had a Living Will since I was in the 10th grade, and Pennsylvania did not even recognize the validity of them at that point. Nevertheless, a teacher taught us that the legislation being considered gave weight to past documentation. Every few years, I have a new one drawn up. Having said that, my last one does NOT include full healthcare proxy and is likely not in line with new NY State protocols. Off to the attorney I go. 🙂 Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/59 "2005-03-02T06:17:11Z")
> [@Casey1505](#): > > _The previous post was not intended as a swipe at **Guinastasia**._ It’s okay-I knew what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419/60 "2005-03-02T06:39:39Z")
My wife finds it ironic that she “killed herself” by starving herself to death, and now won’t be allowed to die by starvation. I, personally, don’t give a shit. Millions have died in the last 15 years that deserve more media attention than this one “incident”. I think I’ve been to about 5 funerals for family members since Terri went perma-frost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/farewell-terry-schiavo/286419.md?page=4)