Fascinating Guardian article" Feminism is "outmoded"?

In My Humble Opinion
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Uh, SAL Excuse me while I flame you, but I did get fired from my job by a boss who asked me, and I quote: “Are you SURE you didn’t say or do anything to encourage those guys?”

So, let’s see, the world according to SAL: evil feminists rule the roost, secretly, and pull strings. Poor, downtrodden men who just want to spend time with their kids are kept from doing so by more evil feminists and so on.

I’m still waiting for that cite, SAL. You’ve known feminists, you say. Well, guys like you are what make women into feminists.

62

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Uh, yeah. I’ve done some reading on these father’s rights groups, and they have really interesting agendas, but only feminists have paranoid delusions, don’t they? Not bitter ex-husbands, obviously.

We could trade stereotypes, but why bother with a guy who makes my ex co-workers look like Phil Donahue?

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This kind of reverse psychology Licious is exactly why we haven’t progressed in tearing down the walls of “gender” (I’m not comfortable with this term as I believe that gender is a socialized behavior) inequality, racism and other forms of discrimanation.

The oppressor, in an attempt to walk away from any kind of responsability in the matter – will cry victim. Father’s Rights Groups claim to be victims of male bashing and unequal treatment and “disadvantaged” Whites will cry out reverse racism. Until the oppressor stops playing at victim and aknowledges its role as a bully to the marginalized group and moves proactively in a massive way (and I mean more than just the token dad at the monthly PTA meeting or the token White person on the NCAAP board) then the movements will continue to remain in this stagnate state.

And your patronizing attitude towards Margin is exactly why more and more women are less inclined to be vocal about their views on feminism or likewise a person of color hesitate to express their views on racism – for fear of being labled an unreasonable, radical, militant.

The fact of the matter is, until women and people of color (and I bring up the issue of race because both apply to my own experience) are recognized as equal members of the human race – these “side” grievances have no bearing.

64

You see, folks, when feminists like margin try to deny the existence of a man-bashing element among feminists – the Andrea Dworkins and Robin Morgans, the SCUM Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men), and so on – they are demanding that we ignore reality and substitue the feminist version. I wish feminists like margin would actually admit to that man-bashing faction in feminism. But if they insist on denying it, they are on a very poor footing with truth and nothing they say need be taken at face value.

As for margin’s “story” about being fired because a man alleged threatened to rape her – oh brother.
Margin, if you want to restore some credibility, then acknowledge the existence of those anti-male bigots we all know exist. If not, then you are hardly a person to be believed.

Margin, I’ve had to work with a lot of feminists who sound just like you do: Nothing is ever their fault, and anyone else with a grievance is “whining,” and they expected to be able to get away with man-bashing because it was enlightened and progressive and men deserve it because we’re y’know, oppressors.
Despite being disruptive and hostile, these chicks usually got away with murder because the organization was committed to hiring more women. However, sooner or later these chicks got tosses out on their asses for one of two reasons:
Competent, mature women came along, so we no longer had to put up with the harridans in order to have a quota, or
They finally stepped on the boss’s toes and he (or she) wasn’t about to put up with it.
Out they went.
So maybe someday, margin, you will be able to admit to yourself the real reason you got canned. And I am betting it was not because you were a poor widdle victim. And once you admit it, you will be able to get on with your life.
Or you can stay in the everything-is-men’s-fault mode, but darling that is sooooo 1970’s

You’ve already been given the cite, and you can make your life simpler by reading the thread. As for why your type becomes feminists – I truly believe one of the reasons feminism has fallen into such disfavor is that women like you found out they could get all the same satisfaction simply by being drama queens – and they didn’t have to go to any symposiums to do it.

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There you have it, folks. A feminist comes forward to equate fathers to oppressors. Her words.

And the comic irony is that right on this thread, other feminists attempt to deny that this type of feminism even exists.

Here’s a pretty good specimen of the racist bigot on the left wing. Lina just lumps all whites in as oppressors.

But let’s remember – if whites object to being depicted as an evil monolith, if we ask to be treated as humans and not stereotypes, we are committing a horrible offense! That’s because types like this will always try to leverage grievances into some sort of profit. A shakedown. And if anyone else even appears to be claiming victimhood, it threatens their profit margins.
Lina, stop trying to shake people down. Work on improving yourself instead of bashing and dehumanizing others . Professional leeches have little future.

The label that applies to you is racist and sexist bigot. And you’re the one who put it there.

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SAL, I’m not ‘feminists like that.’ And ‘nothing is ever my fault.’ Gee, SAL, you’re not exatrapolating too hard, are you? As for the rest of your crap, well, who cares?

The thing is, anti-feminist guys who scream “MALE BASHING MAN HATERS” and then whine about about Andrea Dworkin don’t need feminists to bitch about. They’re waiting to inflate any incident where they don’t get their way into some huge tantrum.

The reason feminism is under so much attack is because of gits like SAL, who see anything they don’t get as a rights issue than a privelege issue. What’s the matter, SAL? Ex-wife get tired of you? Feminism has a very real, intimate effect on lives because unless you’re a gay male, the chances are that you associate with women intimately are very good. If you’re a bigot, you can live in all-whatever neighborhoods. But if you’re sexist and you get used to getting whatever you want, and you’ve never questioned that, then when you have an encounter with a feminist who tells you ‘no’ you’re not going to have any place to run, especially if it’s your soon-to-be-ex wife. Fascinating.

SAL’s a prime example of why feminism exists. He displays all the classic signs of thinking, that if it were directed at a minority group, would be called paranoia.

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They aren’t. Most child abuse is committed by women.

Could I request that this thread either be moved to Great Debates, where we get fewer insults, or the Pit, where we can get more?

Regards,
Shodan

68

What’s interesting is that while men are doing more housework and childcare than they used to, they’re still not doing as much as women. But they still manage to commit almost half the abuse.

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SAL

Which of “my sisters” has said that, and where?

where has she done this? Cite?

I would respectfully submit that you are asking margin and, indeed, everyone who disagrees with you, to “ignore reality” if it doesn’t jibe with yours.

As in,

Because you know better than she what her “reality” is. Got it. :rolleyes:

Again you are missing the subtle distinction between

(a) NO feminist feels this way and
(b) NOT ALL feminists feel this way

I understand that it is hard to have your fundamental beliefs challenged and to be told that your so-called “reality” is not experienced in the same way by everyone. But please, have a little integrity and study the difference between the above statements. They are NOT THE SAME.

Once you’ve caught on to the difference, you can examine these statements:

(a) NO feminist is a man-hater
(b) NOT ALL feminists are man-haters

You have accused us all of saying (a). I will echo margin’s repeated request for a cite where anyone has claimed that.

What I (and others) have said is (b).

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I specifically used the term ‘put them in the hospital’ because while mothers are certainly responsible for at least half of child maltreatment there’s a difference in the types of maltreatment.

Here’s a link for you: http://www.vaw.umn.edu/documents/vawnet/custody/custody.html#id2636689, but at this point I don’t imagine you care to consider it. It’s more complex than that anyway. It’s not just about the fact that custodial parents are often women, it’s also about the fact that all custodial parents want to protect their rights. A man who has custody of his child and who does not receive help from a woman who has abandoned the family probably doesn’t want her to have automatic rights either.

The NOW resolution that you are so outraged by only says that NOW resolved to take action to keep informed. It doesn’t say that mothers are naturally created to be better people than fathers.

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I’m not on the same finger pointing page as Shodan and SAL in this increasingly shrill and silly scrum, but I will admit that if someone offered the above rationale as evidence that men are by nature more evil, bullying and oppressive because their purported level of child abuse is not in line with the amount of housework and child care provided, I would have serious questions about either their amount of real world life experience with families or their basic intelligence.

I have no doubt that fathers are likely to be accused of physical abuse more often than than mothers. Men are stronger and can injure a kid more easily if they lose their temper, but IMO, violent nutcases aside, the overwhelming reason that men are likely to be in this position is that they are naturally given the role of family enforcer, especially with older children and very especially with male children. In many cases the word “given” is too light as the role of family enforcer is often thrust upon them by the mother and nailed to their chest.

“Wait till your father gets home” is a near universal threat and/or warning given throughout human cultures and across time as long as families and human society has existed. And lest you think this ends when a marriage dissolves there is many a divorced man on this board involved in their children’s lives who has gotten many a frantic call from an angry and harried ex to play Darth Vader with a misbehaving (sometimes seriously and dangerously) older child.

Life is more complex than you imagine and to reduce men and women to warring camps is sad and dysfunctional on so many levels. In a modern economy men and women don’t really need each other physically to survive in a decent fashion, but (IMO) children need both male and female involvement to grow up with a balanced and healthy perspective. Finger pointing and mud wrestling over who is the least logical or most oppressive is unlikely to accomplish this.

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There is nothing on the page you linked to that says men are more likely to put their children in the hospital than women.

There are certainly different types of child abuse. Overall, most of it is committed by women. If NOW is arguing that women should be the custodial parents by default because men are statistically more likely than women to commit child abuse, NOW is mistaken.

I don’t understand your point here. Is this about child abuse, or visitation rights, or something else?

Actually, what it does say is that “father’s rights” movements are inherently dangerous, and that anyone who is favor of mediation instead of court hearing, presumption of joint custody, or increased penalties for false reporting of child abuse, is a wife beater. Or at least in sympathy with them.

Read the bolding.

Regards,
Shodan

73

I did not say that I was a feminist. In fact, I don’t label myself as a feminist nor do I consider myself one. I spoke from the perspective of woman and more specifically a woman of color. But you wouldn’t understand about any of that SAL because you’re a man and a White one at that I would venture to guess.

Your very post SAL only served to illustrate my previous point. The fact of the matter is that in your mind and in that of millions of other men that any woman that has a mind to say how she feels and what she thinks – essentially “behaving out of place” is a “feminist”.

It is because of the oppressor that the word feminism has been perverted. There’s no mystery behind that one folks.

And again – I never said fathers were oppressors. I said men are oppressors and that is a fact that you nor any man can run from SAL and the sooner you realize it and do something about it – the sooner things will begin change, but I won’t hold my breath.

So I guess this makes me a “Feminist Biggot Nazi” now?

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lina,

Wait a sec. What? Men are oppressors? What, exactly, do you mean? Do you mean that some individual men oppress other people? Or do you mean that men as a group oppress women as a group? Or do you mean something else altogether? Are women, as a group, oppressors also? Or is it only individual women who oppress? Or do no women oppress?

Grim

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A negative generalization about all white men – and you will still claim you are not a bigot?
While feminists here claim to oppose stereotypes, let us note their silence on such comments.

That’s a pretty nutty conspiracy theory.
The original article that started this discussion cites people who felt the behavior of feminists themselves brought on this distain. But, because feminists can never admit fault, it has to be the machinations of “the oppressor.”

Now you say men are oppressors – outright hate speech. It is interesting to note that feminists who claim to condemn stereotypes have not been moved to any comment on this.

Near the start of this thread, Zoe said “Feminists support choice for both men and women. Equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity.”
I objected. This is a broad and self-serving stereotype, and there are plenty of examples of feminists who do not support choice for men, equal rights for men, equal opportunity for men, etc. And of course there are women like lina who engage in outright man-bashing.

The result is that a feminist named margin denigrates and stereotypes men who object to man-bashing (a practice she herself has not condemned and has not even admitted exists.) And cowgirl lectures about not stereotyping feminists. Yet cowgirl has nothing to say about anti-male stereotypes!

There has not been one feminist in this thread who has condemned anti-male stereotypes. There are several who have promoted anti-male stereotypes. And of course, when men object, they angrily dismiss it as a plot against women.

This is, btw, entirely in keeping with my experience with feminists: when someone bashes men, they stay silent – they object only when someone notes that man-bashing exists. (And then those feminists like margin attempt to blame us for objecting to man-bashing.)

Bottom line: The Guardian article is not a fluke. Feminism has earned its reputation for engaging in or tolerating man-bashing.

In other matters, lina: You keep demanding that people turn over power to you. But anyone who turns over so much as the keys to a latrine to someone of your views is begging for trouble.

Maybe you’re going to claim it’s about your color, or your gender. But sometimes it’s about your personality and beliefs. If you expect to be given any responsibility in the system, you would have to uphold the democratic beliefs of that system. This does not mean you should be given power just so you can carry out a campaign of hatred against men. The hate speech you utter validates the decision to keep you away from any position in which you could do damage. If you want the post, you have to deserve the post. As it is, all that views like yours merit is the job of apprentice muffin baker for the Nation of Islam.

If you’re feeling disenfranchised, it’s a good sign – the system is working. If we are fortunate, it will keep bigots of all shades and stripes on the sidelines.

76

Zoe, right at the start of the thread.

quote:

You see, folks, when feminists like margin try to deny the existence of a man-bashing element among feminists …

Read the thread! This feminist attributes claims of man-bashing to backlash and blames the people who object to man-bashing.
Here is just a sampling from her:

Read the thread, cowgirl. She believes that objections to anti-male feminists are just “tantrums” from men who don’t get their way. If you find any place where margin admits to the existence of feminists who hate men, or acknowledges the legitimacy of objecting to anti-male feminists, cite it. And if you want to get into a silly war of “cite,” keep it up.

I don’t know what margin’s real history is. This is what I do know:
1) A feminist who denies the existence of man-bashing is being dishonest.
2) Statements from dishonest people are rightly treated with skepticism.
3) We’ve heard the “I’m a victim” refrain from feminists before. If you cry wolf often enough, people stop believing you.
4) Given this particular feminist’s reputation for insisting that nothing is her fault, her statements have to be treated with skepticism.
I’m not saying that this particular feminist is lying, per se. But add up the qualities of dishonesty, her capacity for blaming others, and her inability to admit fault, I’d say margin’s version is not to be trusted. Let’s say that her claim that she got fired is true. I’d say her version of why she got fired is self-serving.
Given her vitriol, I’d suggest that her firing had more to do with her attitude than with any Great Patriarchal Conspiracy.

This sounds like you’re making a back-door admission that feminist man-bashing exists. Good. We have a common ground there.
Now if you want a stereotype, Zoe said “Feminists support choice for both men and women. Equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity.”
To which I replied that this broad pat-on-the-back was untrue, citing feminists who did not act this way.
To which feminists typically reply:
(a) Not all feminists feel this way
(b) Therefore you are a backlasher for bringing it up.

The Guardian article “found that feminism is regarded virtually unanimously in negative terms, ranging from old-fashioned to “ball breaking”.” There are reasons for that, including rampant man-bashing. Feminism could address this problem and take a firm stand that man-bashing is counterproductive. But instead, there are always feminists like you who continually chime in “but not all feminists feel that way.” Look, we don’t need to prove that every white person is a racist to admit to the existence of racism. The problem is that feminists who say “not all feminists are man bashers” themselves do little or nothing to oppose man-bashing. When man-bashing takes place in front of you, you remain silent. Well, that makes you complicit. You endorse man-bashing with your silence and acceptance of it.

If you want to refute me – cite. Cite any major feminist writer or group who condemns man-bashing. And each one you show me will be someone who has been denounced by other feminists as “traitors” or “tools of the patriarchy.”

Bottom line: Feminists who don’t actively engage in man-bashing still will condone it in other feminists by staying silent. That is why the movement has a reputation for anti-male bias.

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The Guarding article says "A study commissioned by the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) and published today found that feminism is regarded virtually unanimously in negative terms, ranging from old-fashioned to “ball breaking”. It didn’t mention tantrums among respondents, but this is merely a scientific survey, while margin is a feminist. So who do you trust?

The article also said: "Feminism and the fight for sex equality are seen by the public as outmoded concepts which are failing to address the strains of modern lives, according to research published on the 75th anniversary of women winning equal voting rights. "
Someone please contact The Guardian and tell them they got it all wrong. Apparently everyone in the survey who criticized feminism must have had a wife just leave them. Even the women.

I suppose if you refuse to acknowledge that anti-male bigotry exists within feminism’s ranks, then every complaint against feminist must therefore be illegitimate.
You can condemn me all you want, margin. However, how do you eexplain the widespread negative reaction toward feminism? Everyone is paranoid – except you?

Feminists like you are the reason the rest of us aren’t.

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To all those posting here, I think we need a bit more of this attitude and approach. More level-headed. More fair and even handed. I’m glad we can have, on this thread, at least one person who does not engage in finger pointing – or who can at least condemn the practice while engaging in it. And I’m glad we have someone who is willing to address issues rather than posture for effect. I think that laurel branches must verily sprout from astro’s brows – which would make for some interesting topiary experiments.

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That is not at all my understanding. Do you have a cite – especially for NOW’s position? If it is true, I would certainly want to know about it. It just doesn’t seem reasonable.

I can trump you “having seen” with a “have been.” :slight_smile: I think you are confusing feminists with women in general. Society hasn’t come around to recognizing father’s rights as feminists have. I don’t blame fathers for organizing! Discrimination in the courtroom is a disgrace. But that is not something that can be blamed on the feminists.

[quote]
Satisfying Andy Licious:

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oops! Sorry. Hit “submit by mistake.” Continuing…

[quote]
Satisfying Andy Licious:Or if you are so horrified by generalization about feminists, why do you stand aside why your sisters make absurd claims of all feminists being pure and moral?

quote:

Originally posted by Zoe
Feminists support choice for both men and women. Equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity.

I never said that all feminists are pure and moral. You’ve started to exaggerate and distort to make your points. My “absurd claim” is actually the definition of what a feminist is. (See Webster’s.)