# Fascism, hope(lessness) and Trump's America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [December 3, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150 "2024-12-03T20:52:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/21 "2024-12-03T21:10:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yeah, for several months prior to the election, i comforted myself with the knowledge that hundreds of millions of people have lived basically normal lives under various fascist dictatorships and other unpleasant governments. But that’s the worst (ok, not worst, but still pretty bad) part. The guilt of being (relatively) privileged under a fascist regime, and knowing that so many others have it worse, and you by just living your life without even trying to stop it are complicit in their oppression. Ain’t you ever seen _Man in the High Castle_ and thought “I think I’d actually be oppressed in the Japanese controlled states than complicit in oppression in the American Reich”? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/22 "2024-12-03T21:24:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And I have yet to see a good reason to react and do things that assumes the worst will come: quit jobs, pull kids out of school, buy guns and seeds. Two Things #1 I don’t see how losing my income and my health insurance would improve things. So, I’m keeping my job. I have no kids. My hands no longer shake as badly as they did for many years. However, I have never had the dexterity needed to safely and accurately shoot at anything. So, I will not buy a gun. I own no land. I don’t know of any nearby land I could use to grow food. So, I will buy no seeds. #2 The actions you listed are what YOU would do. They are not necessarilly what other people would do, even if they truly believed the worst will come. I remember a former poster who was thoroughly convinced that Michael Jackson was a child molester. That belief was not so unusual. However, he based that belief on the fact that Jackson had paid a sum to settle a suit out of court. The poster insisted that nobody would ever do that unless they were guilty and trying to hide their guilt. I and many others pointed out repeatedly that Jackson was very very wealthy. To him paying a tiny percent of his vast fortune was worth avoiding the hassle of a trial- even if he was completely innocent. The poster just responded ‘I would never pay a settlement unless I was guilty. Therefore, Jackson is guilty!’ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/23 "2024-12-03T21:44:37Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > considering the “left” in the US includes Bernie’s Socialists (which are apparently _still_ weaksauce compared to the rest of the world, Not the rest of the world, just the.parts where you can drink the tap water. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/24 "2024-12-03T22:25:06Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I don’t see how losing my income and my health insurance would improve things. So, I’m keeping my job. What I meant was, if you’re expecting a fascist dictatorship, even if you survive, the economy is probably going to crash, leaving your income, insurance, and property worthless. Wouldn’t you be better off in another country at literally any cost? > [@DocCathode](#): > > I have no kids. But _if_ you did, I seriously doubt you’d advise them not to go to college (in this country) or forgo education in favor of learning about guerilla warfare or political violence. Very few people would. Again, because they have hope and know they could be wrong. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I own no land. I don’t know of any nearby land I could use to grow food. So, I will buy no seeds. So how would you eat? The stores will be empty or under complete control of someone opposed to your every belief. This was my entire point: 100% anticipating a fascist dictatorship (never mind the complete bloodbath some anticipate) has definite implications that make current life in America absolutely, 100% impossible. But very very few people are betting their futures on that completely. And again, I think that’s both significant and a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/25 "2024-12-03T22:38:24Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > What I meant was, if you’re expecting a fascist dictatorship, even if you survive, the economy is probably going to crash, leaving your income, insurance, and property worthless. Why exactly and precisely would the economy crash? > [@Leaper](#): > > So how would you eat? The stores will be empty or under complete control of someone opposed to your every belief. Why exactly and precisely would the stores be empty? Unless and until all the Jews are rounded up and put into camps, my money is just as good as the next customers. > [@Leaper](#): > > This was my entire point: 100% anticipating a fascist dictatorship (never mind the complete bloodbath some anticipate) has definite implications that make current life in America absolutely, 100% impossible. I note you did not address the second half of the post you quoted. It has those definite inplications to YOU. It may or may not have them to somebody else. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/26 "2024-12-03T22:41:33Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Why exactly and precisely would the economy crash? Ideologically-driven mismanagement and incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/27 "2024-12-03T22:43:46Z")
The answer to all parts: because the dictator in question is Donald Trump, who is spectacularly vindictive, hateful, stupid, uncaring, and incompetent. I’m not saying that the country _will_ go down in flames, but _if_ Trump wields his power like a dictator like some expect, then I don’t see how the above _doesn’t_ happen. If the country shuffles on like normal to _any_ extent, then Trump’s power must be limited _somehow_. That’s the way I, at least, have seen it from the start. Again, I’m not saying the upcoming Trump regime will be a bowl of cherries, far from it. But it feels like that many who say “democracy is dead” are really underestimating what impact that will have and how it’ll affect the country as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/28 "2024-12-03T22:58:49Z")
But…what will you do? If nothing’s gonna change. You choose not to do or can’t do, a couple things. You’re not running from here to that nice pleasant, tropical island w/o governments, heck clothes are not mandantory. Rum flows outta the fountains. No? Maybe you are worried, not panicked, just paying close attention(for what?). Mildly concerned. If, **if** you had children or elderly parents, a lifelong debilitating health issue, your fear increases your panic to 500%. Even having a pet can cause overanxiousness about whether you can properly care for, feed and keep them safe. We may be wrong for gnashing our teeth and carrying on, so. But what are _You_ gonna do? What’s your suggestion? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/29 "2024-12-03T23:44:31Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > This… doesn’t comfort me. Oh, not that you’re _wrong_ @Atamasama - but Trump’s belligerent attitude and wide ( excuse me while I’m nauseated 🤢 ) support means he’s completely comfortable breaking the system to get what he wants. And there is _at least_ a 50/50 chance a sufficient percentage of the legislature and courts will let him get away with it. Yes, correct. Trump will not succeed. He can’t turn the country into a dictatorship. That’s a fantasy story. But his attempts to do so will cause enough damage anyway. So it’s not like nobody has to worry about anything. You just don’t need to worry about turning the US into North Korea. It’ll still be the US, just a shittier US. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/30 "2024-12-03T23:45:04Z")
I do see the end of American democracy as, at best, very likely. Trans rights are already under attack and Trump hasn’t even been inaugurated yet. I do see some problems with the economy. As is well established, Trump does not know how tarrifs work. If he does make good on promises of mass deportation (and I think he will) it will remove a large group of people who worked for low wages (I’m sure in some cases, they accepted below minimum wage), This will drive up prices on many things. Trump will also need to hire a whole bunch of people to work at ICE. He will need to pay them. He will likely get the funds by slashing social security benefits and similar safety net programs. Economically speaking, things will be bad. But, I don’t think they will be unsustainably bad. How long was the USSR able to keep going? Cuba? the People’s Republic Of China? I fully expect, as I have said many times in different threads, that LGBTQ rights will be rolled back to pre Stonewall levels. Hispanics/Latinos will become second class citizens. A nominally Christian state religion will be established. Jews like me will end become second class citizens. We may or may not end up in death camps. I did briefly consider fleeing the counrty. Besides practical considerations, that just feels very wrong. Trump takes over the country I love, and I decide to let him have it and run away? I will be staying and fighting as best I can for as long as I am able. That certainly does not mean gearing up and picking up a gun. I think, right now, the best I can do is try to warn people. Like I am doing on the Dope ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/31 "2024-12-03T23:49:40Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I do see the end of American democracy as, at best, very likely. If it’s “very likely”, what is the _exact_ method he will use to achieve it? It would literally take a military coup to accomplish what you think he will do. It would only end after a civil war. He and his people are not willing to go anywhere near that far. Does Donald Trump seem like a zealot to you? Would you see him sacrificing everything to achieve those goals? Again, this is an absolutely silly fantasy. Everything that you mentioned after saying “the end of American democracy” would not come anywhere near causing that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/32 "2024-12-03T23:49:58Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Trump will not succeed. He can’t turn the country into a dictatorship. That’s a fantasy story. “It can’t happen here.” America isn’t _special,_ it can slide into dictatorship like anywhere else. And we are putting people into power who want it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/33 "2024-12-03T23:51:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > America isn’t _special,_ it can slide into dictatorship like anywhere else. And we are putting people into power who want it that way. And I want a vintage Mustang, but wanting things doesn’t make them happen. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/34 "2024-12-03T23:51:25Z")
I seriously think that we’re in for more state-by-state refusal to cooperate for the short-to-medium future. For example, Texas saying it’s going to police it’s own borders. Which is role-reversed from what I think will happen in said term. Trump’s going to dictate a LOT of things. And various, blue majority states are going to say NO and go their own way, and the courts will dither over tiny points of the law rather than actually point out that the Orange One and Cronies are breaking the Constitution. So many years yet of fuming hate and resentment built up on both sides. If we’re luckier than we have been so far in the timeline, there’ll be ANOTHER realignment in two or four years. But the Right, and Christian/White Nationalists have been emboldened, so who knows the long term issues. And worse, is what will happen to military training in that short to medium term. Because I could see a lot of emphasis on pointed changes to doctrine on dealing with domestic targets. And a lot less emphasis on illegal orders. Given enough _time._… Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/35 "2024-12-03T23:53:55Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > And I want a vintage Mustang, but wanting things doesn’t make them happen. That’s like saying you can’t have a vintage Mustang when there’s one in front of you, you are handed the money to buy it and the owner just offered to sell it to you. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/36 "2024-12-03T23:55:35Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > If it’s “very likely”, what is the _exact_ method he will use to achieve it? It would literally take a military coup to accomplish what you think he will do. It would only end after a civil war. I don’t see a military coup as necessary. The American people have spoken. They want impossible promises to magically fix the economy- and they want naked hatred and prejuice. Trump will roll back LGBTQ rights. Obviously, LGBTQ people will protest. It won’t matter. There won’t be enough of them to matter. Allies will protest. Same thing. The vast majority of Americans will cheer. This is exactly what they wanted Trump to do. He will keep doing hateful things. The vast majority will keep cheering. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/37 "2024-12-03T23:55:47Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > I seriously think that we’re in for more state-by-state refusal to cooperate for the short-to-medium future. Yeah, I can see a conflict between states eventually coming to pass if the path we’re on doesn’t change. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > So many years yet of fuming hate and resentment built up on both sides. If we’re luckier than we have been so far in the timeline, there’ll be ANOTHER realignment in two or four years. But the Right, and Christian/White Nationalists have been emboldened, so who knows the long term issues. And this is true. If somehow the right manages to somehow get stronger under Trump’s “leadership” (when the opposite happened before, but who knows) then eventually we could see a breakdown and someday that civil war will happen. Trump doesn’t have an Infinity Gauntlet to snap his fingers. Winning one election doesn’t give him that, nor does a slim majority in Congress and a too-willing SCOTUS. But I’m concerned about the long arc if we don’t see things start correcting themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/38 "2024-12-04T00:05:09Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I don’t see a military coup as necessary. The American people have spoken. Trump won an election. You’re overreacting to that. > [@DocCathode](#): > > They want impossible promises to magically fix the economy- and they want naked hatred and prejuice. People always want impossible promises to magically fix the economy. That is the case in every election ever. That’s why it comes up every election cycle. The POTUS has very little control over the economy, and can rarely do anything to make it better. There are ways to make it _worse_, certainly, like putting in tariffs that will raise inflation even worse, but for the most part if the POTUS has a good economy that’s due as much to luck as anything. Yet people expect their leaders to have more power than that, and those leaders will promise it, because it’s what people expect. They are like powerless magicians in front of an audience promising to perform magic when they are just using sleight-of-hand to try to make it look like they have some kind of ability to do something. That’s politics. As far as the hate and prejudice, yes we’ve had a backslide, though fortunately it doesn’t erase progress we’ve made over the years, and hopefully we’ll continue on the previous path of becoming more accepting of people. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Trump will roll back LGBTQ rights. Obviously, LGBTQ people will protest. It won’t matter. There won’t be enough of them to matter. Allies will protest. Same thing. Yeah, it’s shitty. Some of my closest friends (people like family to me) may suffer, though as I’ve said I’m in a good part of the country so I have hope they’ll have it much better than people elsewhere in the country. I do feel for LGBTQ people living in certain parts of the country, who probably have already had to live in fear, and now see that magnified. It makes me sick to think something like that would happen in my country. > [@DocCathode](#): > > The vast majority of Americans will cheer. This is exactly what they wanted Trump to do. He will keep doing hateful things. The vast majority will keep cheering. The “vast majority” will not cheer. The “vast majority” didn’t back Trump. Again, you’re being hyperbolic. And nothing you described is “ending democracy”. You’re describing some very bad things, many of which are probable, and yeah, this past election was bad and will lead to bad things. But not the final result you were proclaiming. Things are bad, exaggerating how bad to the point of absurdity does nobody any good, especially yourself. And why make up terrible things when reality is already bad enough? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/39 "2024-12-04T00:14:50Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The “vast majority” will not cheer. The “vast majority” didn’t back Trump It was’t just Trump. Across the country, people ran on that platform of hatred. Most of them won. > [@](#): > > Again, you’re being hyperbolic. And nothing you described is “ending democracy”. You’re describing some very bad things, many of which are probable, and yeah, this past election was bad and will lead to bad things. But not the final result you were proclaiming. No, nothing I have described so far in this current Prediction Of Doom is the end of American democracy. That will happen in one of two ways- Either Trump and the rest of them manage to reshape the entire government the way they reshaped the Republican party, OR when things have gone far enough and there isn’t enough resistance left, Trump will just declare himself dictator for life. It will not be Constitutional, he won’t care. Some Americans will care. But they will be too few and too weak to stop him… > [@](#): > > Things are bad, exaggerating how bad to the point of absurdity does nobody any good, especially yourself. And why make up terrible things when reality is already bad enough? I am neither exaggerating nir making things up. Things look bad. Shortly, they will be bad. Then, they will be much, much worse. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/40 "2024-12-04T00:17:34Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I see a “no true leftist” fallacy here. IOW, what passes for the left in the USA is so far right that they don’t even know what leftism _really_ is. Exactly. Which is why Trump labeled Kamala Harris a “radical Marxist”, and more than half of the voters agreed. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/3680): > > Had Hitler not foolishly started WWII, most Germans would have lived out their entire lives growing up, going to work, getting married, having kids, etc., more or less normally. If by “normally” you mean visits by the Gestapo in the middle of the night if there was any suspicion you might be Jewish or some other undesirable minority, or might be harbouring one. The 1930s were a horrific time in Germany, getting increasingly worse as Nazi fanatasism strengthened. _Kristallnacht_ was in 1938, nearly a year before Hitler invaded Poland. It may be that some of the horrors may have been lessened if all-out war had not broken out, perhaps because other countries may have intervened, but I’m doubtful. Before war broke out, Hitler was regarded as a relatively normal leader, even favourably regarded by some, despite the violent pogrom already going on in Germany. In his book _In the Garden of Beasts_, in which Erik Larson details the experiences of US ambassador to Germany William Dodd between 1933 and 1937, Dodd failed to convince the US administration that Hitler was a real threat or that Germany was in turmoil; on the contrary, Dodd’s eldest daughter, impressed by pomp and pageantry of pre-war Nazi Germany, carried on an affair with Rudolf Diels when he was head of the Gestapo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150.md?page=3)