# Fascism, hope(lessness) and Trump's America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [December 3, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150 "2024-12-03T20:52:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/61 "2024-12-04T14:32:05Z")
Was there supposed to be another party to that conversation? Time yet to edit the post if so! ETA: Also… to the question itself… asking “is capitalism better than nazism?” is kind of like asking “are rectangles better than squares?” I mean, sure, it’s possible to be a rectangle (capitalist) without being a square (Nazi), but the reverse is not true. Being a capitalist is a necessary component of nazism (ETA2: at least after the Night of the Long Knives). So… does that make me the stereotypical leftist, or am I just someone who hates false dilemas and poorly framed questions? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/62 "2024-12-04T14:34:39Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Was there supposed to be another party to that conversation? There was supposed to be, but HMS wimped out of asking the question that he proposes asking, so I had to do all the work myself. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/63 "2024-12-04T14:40:47Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > As always, anytime you are in the neighborhood you are welcome to stop in for a meal and some mead. > > Keepin mind that I have moved. Thanks, and likewise! @HMS_Irruncible, if you actually have the iota of courage it would take to try the stupid experiment you asked me to try, I encourage you to frame it correctly. Most leftists (hell most people) will have the same reaction I had to reading the question: a recoil in confusion and annoyance at such a dumbass question and a suspicion that it’s some weird gotcha. As such, you’re unlikely to get a straightforward answer, unless you frame it correctly, something like this: > [@](#): > > Hey, I have a really stupid question to ask, and you’re gonna want to argue with it, but I hope you’ll go along with it, and just give a “yes” or “no” answer, because I want to prove a point. I’ll explain the point later, once I get enough folks answering “yes” or “no”. Is capitalism better than Nazism? Otherwise, you won’t get straightforward answers–not because of the shittiness of leftists, but because of the shittiness of the question itself. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/64 "2024-12-04T15:03:51Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > ETA: Also… to the question itself… asking “is capitalism better than nazism?” is kind of like asking “are rectangles better than squares?” I mean, sure, it’s possible to be a rectangle (capitalist) without being a square (Nazi), but the reverse is not true. Being a capitalist is a necessary component of nazism (ETA2: at least after the Night of the Long Knives). > > So… does that make me the stereotypical leftist, or am I just someone who hates false dilemas and poorly framed questions? It’s a terribly-framed question. I think HMS is trying to ask about American-style capitalism, but may not understand that: - Capitalism is an economic ideology, while Nazism is a political ideology - Pure capitalism has never existed, while pure Nazism obviously has - As you say, capitalism (modified) is a component of Nazism There are other problems with it, but these are a good start. _Even so_, I see from here that 100% of leftists who have answered the question have answered it opposite the way that HMS guaranteed that leftists would answer it. “No fair!” he whines, “You cheated, you saw the answer key!” Boo hoo: other than being a stupidly-framed question, it has an obvious answer to any leftist I’ve heard of who’s willing to look past that bad framing. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/65 "2024-12-04T15:27:42Z")
As I said upthread, IMO it’s a form of “no true leftists” gotcha. IOW … Anyone who can answer unequivocally as **LHOD** does is not a “real leftist”. Because **HMS** ’s "real leftist"s would definitely claim they’re equally bad or that capitalism is worse. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/66 "2024-12-04T16:06:54Z")
Yeah, I wondered if that would be the next move. My leftist credentials are pretty strong (having organized an anarchist conference, having organized protests and petitions for better pay for workers, having led a union local for years, having committed civil disobedience with deliberate jail time, etc.), but of course there’s always someone who’s leftier than thou who will declare someone Not A True Leftist. I don’t have any patience for that nonsense when it comes from self-identified leftists, and I’m actively hostile toward that nonsense when it comes from someone who doesn’t identify as a leftist. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/67 "2024-12-04T16:08:47Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > “American people” meaning a plurality, not a majority. True, but far more of them than I would have thought possible ten years ago. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/68 "2024-12-04T16:27:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Capitalism is an economic ideology, while Nazism is a political ideology Yes, but there were economic policies as well. > The Nazi economy has been described as _[dirigiste](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme)_ by several scholars.[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-11)[[12]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-12) Overall, according to historian [Richard Overy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Overy), the Nazi [war economy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_economy) was a [mixed economy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy) that combined [free markets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market) with [central planning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_planning); Overy describes it as being somewhere in between the [command economy of the](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union) [Soviet Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) and the [capitalist system of the](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States) [United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States).[[13]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-13) > > The Nazi government developed a partnership with leading German business interests, who supported the goals of the regime and its war effort in exchange for advantageous contracts, subsidies, and the suppression of the trade union movement.[[14]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTETooze2006101%E2%80%93114-14) [Cartels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel) and monopolies were encouraged at the expense of small businesses, even though the Nazis had received considerable electoral support from small business owners.[[15]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-15) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy\_of\_Nazi\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/69 "2024-12-04T16:30:14Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Put this to the test. Ask a leftist explicitly if capitalism is better than Nazism. I guarantee you will get 0% of responses that straightforwardly answer “yes”. Fail, right now. Naziism is much worse than capitalism. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’m talking about people that I interact with online. They’re all exactly as I describe. Not the ones on this board, who you certainly are interacting with online. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Find a leftist Lots of us are leftists, damn it. Because we vote for who can get elected, and because we don’t want to move immediately to utter chaos, says very little about what we think an ideal society would be. If you’re only accepting as “leftists” people who do want to move immediately to utter chaos, the problem isn’t with other people’s politics. It’s with the lens you’re looking through. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I mean, sure, it’s possible to be a rectangle (capitalist) without being a square (Nazi), but the reverse is not true. Being a capitalist is a necessary component of nazism So is being a human. (Or at least a member of a species capable of thinking this way about politics, if we ever come across another example.) Pure capitalism rapidly moves to a fucked up mess. Which is why no country has it for very long; and the USA doesn’t either, for all the noise we make about it. But it’s only a portion of the fucked up mess of Nazism. And the shit of capitalism can be turned into fertilizer, if treated properly. The shit of Nazism will only create pollution. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/70 "2024-12-04T16:31:18Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Yes, but there were economic policies as well. Of course–just like Republicanism (referring to the US party) is a political ideology with economic policies, as is Democratism, Tory politics, Labour politics, Green politics, and every other ideology associated with a political party. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/71 "2024-12-04T17:23:48Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Does Donald Trump seem like a zealot to you? Depends on what kind of zealot we’re talking about. \*Not a zealot against LGBTQ+ people, abortion, or other “culture war” issues. **However,** he’s very willing to give the zealots among his supporters what they want. Would Trump propose or call for a bill to make abortion illegal nationally? No, I actually believe him when he says he favors the state-by-state approach. But I’d also be surprised if he didn’t **sign** such a bill if it came to him through the efforts of others. \*Zealot on being anti-immigrant. It’s his original and “best” political argument, his first and last resort as a scoundrel. In his stupidity, he swallows various idiotic theories on why 14th-Amendment citizenship-by-birth isn’t what it is. I don’t believe the Supreme Court, even as composed now, is dumb enough to adopt any of the ridiculously crabbed interpretations he subscribes to because they’d bring uncertainty on citizenship to way more people than the target races/ethnicities. But that ain’t going to stop increased deportation efforts in which citizens will be caught in the dragnet, because Trump will put people in charge who care more about the color of someone’s skin or the languages they speak than whether their papers are in order, who’ll sacrifice “efficiency” for precision. A “streamlined” process will be put in place, and the Supremes will likely uphold it so long as it has **some** kind of relief valve however weak. Some wrongly-detained people with money or other resources (public sympathy from neighbors or social media) will indeed manage to obtain release in non-MAGA courts, which Trumpists will point to as “proof” that the new system works, but many of the poorest will be deported though born in East L.A. (or Pilsen, or Spanish Harlem). \*Zealot on opposing **any** kind of response to climate change other than “burn, baby, burn!” One of his first acts in his first term was getting the U.S. out of the climate accords. He spent his entire term striving as much as the laws and political opposition would allow to open public lands to intensive resource extraction. The ongoing closing of coal-fired power plants and the increased economic viability of wind and solar power? The fact that the oil companies aren’t clamoring for more places to extract oil? The economic benefits of tourism to public lands? Trump, like shingles, doesn’t care. 🙄 Trump believes prosperity itself comes from the unlimited burning of coal and oil; a fetish, in the non-sexual sense. Moreover, he’s demonstrated a firm belief that **any** public land not dedicated to intensive resource extraction is being wasted. **That’s** one of the kinds of “waste and inefficiency” DOGE is there to go after. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/72 "2024-12-04T17:35:31Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > Moreover, he’s demonstrated a firm belief that **any** public land not dedicated to intensive resource extraction is being wasted. **That’s** one of the kinds of “waste and inefficiency” DOGE is there to go after. Even if that resource is only rube money. Old Faithful Chick-fil-A! Golden arches over the Grand Canyon! The Washington Monument should have a chocolate waterfall. The Reflecting Pool should be filled with gravy! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/73 "2024-12-04T17:51:32Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Yes, but there were economic policies as well. > > > The Nazi economy has been described as _[dirigiste](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme)_ by several scholars. > > … > > The Nazi government developed a partnership with leading German business interests, who supported the goals of the regime and its war effort in exchange for advantageous contracts, subsidies, and the suppression of the trade union movement.[[14]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTETooze2006101%E2%80%93114-14) [Cartels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel) and monopolies were encouraged at the expense of small businesses, even though the Nazis had received considerable electoral support from small business owners.[[15]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-15) > > [Economy of Nazi Germany - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany) I’m going to suggest that wiki’s last paragraph that you quoted is pretty close to what all the trumply fatcat hangers-on want. What trump himself wants is probably very simple: adoring crowds and a percentage of all the money everyone else makes as they help themselves carving up the country. And oh by the way a bunch of justice-run-amok vengeance because it makes for good theater, keeps him and his actions in the center of the news, fires up adoring crowds of supporters, and, best of all, triggers much wailing and gnashing of teeth by his detractors. ---
**Author:** ![MindsEye\_Watering](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindseye_watering/32/3619_2.png) [@MindsEye\_Watering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindsEye_Watering)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/74 "2024-12-04T18:29:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We need to stand up to Trump and oppose him and the Republicans any way we can if we want to limit the damage he can do. Okay. How do we do that? Please be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/75 "2024-12-04T18:50:16Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I asked myself if capitalism was better than Nazism. I said yes absolutely it was. I concur. Capitalism is far, far better than the nightmare of nazism. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/76 "2024-12-04T19:27:32Z")
I’m inclined to agree with @Smapti that we’ll get through this and Trump will not (successfully) turn this into a dictatorship. However, the constitution is just a piece of paper, at the end of the day. If certain elements in the other branches go along, it isn’t impossible. Over on Breitbart yesterday, the hardcore MAGA were cheering on the South Korean president for “getting rid of the lefties.” Y’all can go see that stuff for yourselves. So there very much IS a contingent of Americans that would support a Trump dictatorship. How many? I don’t know. I think our best bet is that Trump so fully fucks things up that the movement is discredited. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Put this to the test. Ask a leftist explicitly if capitalism is better than Nazism. I guarantee you will get 0% of responses that straightforwardly answer “yes”. I know some pretty leftist people. Self-avowed socialists (in the EU style). They would all say that they want a capitalist system, just one with strong safety nets. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/77 "2024-12-04T20:00:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > What percentage of Project 2025 do you consider will need to be successfully implemented for you to characterize American democracy as “ended?” Whatever percentage leads to leaders no longer being elected in any way other than a token show of democracy. Democracy is the election of leaders by the population, and if that’s still intact we will still have democracy despite any other bad things going on. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/78 "2024-12-04T20:06:14Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Whatever percentage leads to leaders no longer being elected _in any way other than a token show of democracy._ ISTM that the italicized bit there may find itself doing a lot of the heavy lifting. I hope it’s not so subtle that we can’t discern it when the rubber hits the road. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/79 "2024-12-04T20:07:58Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > ISTM that the italicized bit there may find itself doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Maybe. I’m just remembering when I was a kid learning about “elections” in the Soviet Union that weren’t really elections at all. It was in no way a secret and it probably wouldn’t be here either. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/80 "2024-12-04T20:12:04Z")
Here’s hoping! Cheers! 🥂 (sorry, that was the only “toasting” emoji I could find) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150.md?page=5)