# Fascism, hope(lessness) and Trump's America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [December 3, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150 "2024-12-03T20:52:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/161 "2024-12-10T00:44:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Just posting the exact same bullshit in it. I don’t even know _what_ you are trying to insult me about, with your vague ranting. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/162 "2024-12-10T02:41:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t even know _what_ you are trying to insult me about This wasn’t you? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > anarchists are a small minority. And by nature terribly organized. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/163 "2024-12-10T03:02:35Z")
Yes? But that doesn’t contradict what I said. Bottom up organization _is_ a terrible form of organization for anything but really narrow purposes. Especially for humans, who are too idiosyncratic to do it well; it works best when all of the things being organized are predictable like cells or ants. Not people, even well meaning people will soon start operating at cross purposes at anything but tiny scales. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/164 "2024-12-10T04:09:19Z")
That’s just your (bullshit) opinion - Graeber and Wengrow showed this mistaken belief is not some law of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/165 "2024-12-10T04:38:45Z")
If we can move the sniping aside for a moment, I, for one, appreciate the quite clear explanation of what anarchism actually is and how it plays a large part in most people’s lives already. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/166 "2024-12-10T11:56:56Z")
Can we get back to the thread please. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/167 "2024-12-18T18:07:05Z")
Which one? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/168 "2024-12-19T21:07:06Z")
Okay, here’s an opinion I’ve come to hold: I don’t believe that the vast, vast, VAST majority of people, either here or elsewhere, who say that America is going to become fascist are actually living their lives and making decisions like they really think this is true. So either they hold out hope that they’re not telling others about, or they severely underestimate the actual results of the event happening (the national and global economy merrily rolling along while vast numbers of people are dying in concentration camps?! Absurd). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/169 "2024-12-19T21:16:49Z")
That’s how people tend to act. By the time things get bad enough that most people are willing to abandon everything and run it’s too late. And the general hostility to refugees & immigrants means there’s not much in the way of a place to run _to_ these days. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/170 "2024-12-19T21:20:17Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So either they hold out hope that they’re not telling others about, or they severely underestimate the actual results of the event happening (the national and global economy merrily rolling along while vast numbers of people are dying in concentration camps?! Absurd). Very good possibility of Trump destroying our economy with his tariffs. The man is blindingly stupid. Concentration camps? Doubt it. If Monk and Vivek have their way, the services that some of us depend on will be gone. All while raising unemployment. He should have been stopped for all the crimes he’s committed years ago. But it turns out many of the judges, right up to the Supreme Court are corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/171 "2024-12-19T21:25:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And the general hostility to refugees & immigrants means there’s not much in the way of a place to run _to_ these days. And while US Americans have not always been popular, the world is hating us for electing Asshole1. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/172 "2024-12-19T21:30:10Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Very good possibility of Trump destroying our economy with his tariffs. The man is blindingly stupid. Oh, from actual economic policies, I agree. But I’m also referring to hardcore dictator and tyrant tactics. I simply don’t see how today’s interconnected world stays chugging along with a fascist America. I just don’t. ESPECIALLY not one with this dude in charge. (Aside: I’m kind of wondering now if Trump just won’t do his tariffs, like maybe he’ll just stop talking about them and not do anything, just wait for people to forget and ignore anyone who asks. If he’s actually absorbing what people are saying, it’s the best way to get out of them. It’s not like he hasn’t done similar dozens of times before…) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/173 "2024-12-19T21:46:45Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Oh, from actual economic policies, I agree. But I’m also referring to hardcore dictator and tyrant tactics. Have to have faith in our military here (I’m including the National Guard). But Congress and SCOTUS have been taken over. Supposedly good people doing what’s best for the country. It is to laugh. Just stop talking about tariffs would be the right way to go. But…, “I had the right to remain silent, but didn’t have the ability to do so” - Ron White “Two weeks” - Donald J Trump. He may be too busy raping and plundering, but that asshole can’t keep his mouth shut. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/174 "2024-12-19T22:20:50Z")
Serious question- How do you expect people to live their lives and make decision if it is true? Perhaps they are already doing so, but your expectation of how they should act is different from theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/175 "2024-12-19T22:38:43Z")
Flee the country at literally any cost. Apply for political asylum. Alternately, prepper stuff, especially if trapped in a red state. Guns mostly, but maybe also canned food, learning to sew and farm if you can’t already, etc. Quitting jobs and cashing out retirement accounts to make any of the above happen. Encouraging or forcing everyone you care about to do the same, especially children. (This is mostly for those who are part of Republican shit lists in ways that can’t be covered up, though it won’t be a treat even for cis Christian white men in many ways…) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/176 "2024-12-20T15:39:07Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I don’t believe that the vast, vast, VAST majority of people, either here or elsewhere, who say that America is going to become fascist are actually living their lives and making decisions like they really think this is true. So either they hold out hope that they’re not telling others about, or they severely underestimate the actual results of the event happening (the national and global economy merrily rolling along while vast numbers of people are dying in concentration camps?! Absurd). This is a false dichotomy. Most fascist regimes, though they certainly kill and torture their actual and perceived political enemies and terrorize their populations, don’t involve “vast numbers of people dying in concentration camps”. Things can get really, really bad without getting to literal Nazi-level bad. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/177 "2024-12-20T15:55:56Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Flee the country at literally any cost. Apply for political asylum. Alternately, prepper stuff, especially if trapped in a red state. Guns mostly, but maybe also canned food, learning to sew and farm if you can’t already, etc. Quitting jobs and cashing out retirement accounts to make any of the above happen. Encouraging or forcing everyone you care about to do the same, especially children. This is completely unrealistic advice. No country is going to give you political asylum based on “I’m scared of what Trump might do in the future”. You’re basically advising people to go live as undocumented aliens somewhere, which would make sense if you’re actually 100% certain that you personally are going to be dragged off to a concentration camp. But someone could rationally assess the threat level as being terrifyingly high, and still not be willing to accept the certainty of a shitty life as a criminal in a foreign country as the alternative. I advise everyone to make sure their passports are in order, and I would advise members of visible minority groups to move out of deep red areas, but pre-emptively fleeing the country is just not a realistic option for most people. Having said that, if I were a wealthy high-profile Trump opponent – Hillary Clinton, say – I’d definitely be planning a four-year vacation in Paris. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/178 "2024-12-20T17:57:49Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Most fascist regimes, though they certainly kill and torture their actual and perceived political enemies and terrorize their populations, don’t involve “vast numbers of people dying in concentration camps”. Exactly correct. Authoritarian regimes like Francoist Spain (1936-1975) and the Estado Novo of Salazarist Portugal (1933-1974) were quite stable over decades of varying degrees of repression. You could of course argue over whether they were consistently fascist by strict definition and historians certainly have. Spain substantially was early on, Portugal not exactly - it been described as more corporatist. But they were both undeniably authoritarian, dictatorial for long stretches and undemocratic. The United States is not necessarily headed down the road to Nazi Germany, despite that model being the usual one invoked, either seriously or as hyperbole. Something closer to corporatist Portugal is a lot more likely if we tumble down that road. There weren’t mass executions and concentration camps. Just no real democracy, censorship, enforced social conservatism, Dickensian capitalism, ugly police repression and maybe the very occasional individual political murder in prison or the like. Putin would have loved it. It needn’t be a post-apocalyptic nightmare of an authoritarian regime. One that mostly harms the fringes of the population by elimination of rights rather than out and out slaughter, while more modestly restricting the rights of the whole, is pretty plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/179 "2024-12-20T19:26:17Z")
Jill Stein is a rotten apple: Green on the outside and Brown on the inside. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150/180 "2024-12-20T19:57:08Z")
IMHO the Democratic term coordinate with “Republicanism” should be “Democraticism.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-hope-lessness-and-trumps-america/1011150.md?page=10)