# Fascism in the Whitehouse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340 "2003-05-10T17:00:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/21 "2003-05-10T21:49:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*I’m curious as to what “leftists” (especially in the plural) have said any such thing on this thread. \*\* See Thread title. Granted that’s just one. (In mathematics, “some” means “at least one”) **Blalron’s** post just above this one seems to be on a somewhat related wavelength to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/22 "2003-05-10T22:28:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\* > So what _is_ it with Republican presidents scaring the populace towards fears of fascism, anyway? 😉 \*\* Well, the Democrats have the whole godless communist section to themselves. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/23 "2003-05-10T22:46:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \* > **rjung, why exactly are you worried about electronic voting machines?** Well, I’ll let **rjung** speak for himself, but I’m personally worried about electronic voting if there isn’t enough proper third-party oversight. With paper voting, you can at least go back and count the ballots. The only way to forge an election result would be to make up thousands of fake ballots. If the people in charge of counting are corrupt, you can fire them and hire new people to count. With pure electronic voting, though, you can only trust the election result as much as you trust the software. Suppose you have a voting booth with nothing but a touch screen: you tap on Richard Tweedledum for President, the screen says “You have selected TWEEDLEDUM”, and the computer adds a vote to Tweedledum’s running total. Or does it? How do you know that it didn’t actually count your vote for Frank Tweedledee instead, either because of a bug in the software, or a deliberate “back door”? Without a physical record of the votes, you don’t know. Even if the software is audited by a third party, who guarantees it free of back doors and bugs, you have to trust A) that the third party did a competent job, and B) that the compiled software on the voting machines was produced from exactly the same code that was audited, no more and no less. [This back door from the 70s](http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/) shows why B isn’t as simple as you might think. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/24 "2003-05-10T22:58:35Z")
\*\*Fascism in the Whitehouse \*\* Not hardly. Yet. W Bush with admirable zeal has begun an overdue latterday Crusade to rid this world of tyrants. A noble pursuit. One very attainable in the 21st Century. But benevolence itself has hidden barbs. Lenin, Mao, Hussin, and Hitler enslaved millions to bring them to true happiness. And while W Bush is a Cincinnatus, a crusader crusades best without petty constituional constraints. Keep vigil. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/25 "2003-05-10T23:08:19Z")
> [@](#): > > (In mathematics, “some” means “at least one”) Given that **Blalron** ’s post seems to be sarcasm (probably in response to yours–and that it had not been posted when you made your claim) and that we do not know whether **lander2k2** is actually a “leftist” or simply a bit naive, it would appear that you are simply engaging in more partisan silliness. Now, I would certainly agree that some members of the Left use _fascism_ as a mindless insult in the way that some members of the Right use _communism_. It is also possible that _some_ members of the Left actually associate Bush and company with Nazis. However, your hijack of this thread was, at best, premature and may prove to be completely in error. Simply more partisan glurge. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/26 "2003-05-10T23:18:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t worry. The system can’t get that far out of whack. > [@](#): > > The only President with a chance of imposing fascism even worth talking about was FDR. He didn’t swing it - without a world war and a depression no other President is going to bring it off either. Actually, it wasn’t FDR per se, but during his Presidency that we came probably the closest we’ve ever come in this century to an actual coup attempt. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/27 "2003-05-10T23:28:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **…and that we do not know whether lander2k2 is actually a “leftist” or simply a bit naive** Wouldn’t that be the same thing? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/28 "2003-05-10T23:29:10Z")
Apos, what do you mean by “coup attempt”? A coup by FDR, or against him? ---
**Author:** ![lander2k2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@lander2k2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lander2k2)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/29 "2003-05-11T03:30:08Z")
Let me clarify how I see the possibility that Bush being pushed towards fascism. I say “pushed towards” because he doesn’t seem bright enough to orchestrate anything himself, and I say fascism quite deliberately and not as a random fashionable insult. Let me make it clear that when I say “fascism in the Whitehouse” I’m proposing the possibility that there are elements in the administration that are actively working on pushing America in that direction. I can’t see them getting far without many screaming to high heaven about it. But it seems to me that there is some elements trying to go in that direction. The dictionary defines fascism as: “a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized governmental control, belligerent nationalism, racism, and militarism, etc. “ The _one-party dictatorship_ aspect is obviously not attainable under the US Constitution and while Bush has shown a penchant for encroaching upon constitutional principles in the name of “protecting the homeland,” it is hard to imagine anything like this being pulled off. _Forcible suppression of opposition_ could potentially be accomplished under new measures to “fight terrorism.” Once someone is arbitrarily labeled a terrorist it seems they can be detained without due legal recourse now. While I don’t know of any real instances of political prisoners being taken, it should be noted that terrorist fighting measures could be employed to this end. _Private economic enterprise being brought under centralized control_ doesn’t necessarily mean communism to me. Take the recent invade-a-country-and-award-big-contracts-to-well-connected-corporations stunt. For mine the entire Iraq gig was an economic stimulus plan. Seems to me one way of bringing private enterprise under government control. America is already pretty much socialist what with the size of the federal government and extent of taxation and private enterprise is already under heavy influence from the government, even if only through taxation. As for the _belligerent nationalism_, note how Bush et al reacted to the nations that questioned the US intentions with regard to Iraq. _Racism_ is a big no-no in America and while it may be present, especially with regard to middle-easterners, no one will say as much. _Militarism_? Well, nothing needs to be said on that one in the wake of an unprovoked invasion. As for the points that were raised alluding to how different circumstance are in the US compared to other times and places where fascism has raised its ugly head, while these factors may be true, there sure are some correlations to a specific and very notorious series of events as well. Note the following article: [http://paranoiamagazine.com/democracyfailed.html](http://paranoiamagazine.com/democracyfailed.html) As for suggestions about my political leaning, I’m no leftist. My political leaning is _away_ from politics altogether. I think politics as it exists in America today is comically childish. Just MHO. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/30 "2003-05-11T03:40:07Z")
Um, _Paranoia Magazine_? Sure…whatever. Look over their articles-UFOs, conspiracy theories, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/31 "2003-05-11T04:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Apos, what do you mean by “coup attempt”? A coup by FDR, or against him? IANA (I am not Apos - a rarely used internet acronym) but I believe he is referring to the MacGuire plot of 1933. A businessman, Gerald MacGuire, approached retired Marine general Smedly Butler and said he represented a group of businessmen where concerned about FDR’s economic policies. They wanted Butler to lead a military coup and force FDR to become a figurehead president. Butler turned down their offer and reported it to Congress. Or I could be wrong and Apos might be talking about Charles Coughlin, Huey Long, William Pelley, or one of the other people who led movements in the 1930’s that appeared capable of overthrowing the American government. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/32 "2003-05-11T05:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Little Nemo \* > \*\*IANA (I am not Apos - a rarely used internet acronym) but I believe he is referring to the MacGuire plot of 1933. A businessman, Gerald MacGuire, approached retired Marine general Smedly Butler and said he represented a group of businessmen where concerned about FDR’s economic policies. They wanted Butler to lead a military coup and force FDR to become a figurehead president. Butler turned down their offer and reported it to Congress. > \*\* That was probably one of the most bizarre incidents in the entirety of American history. A group of businessmen tried to utilize a popular but left leaning general for a fascist coup. Who would’ve figured? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/33 "2003-05-11T06:56:50Z")
There’s ample reason to be concerned about the use of electronic voting machines. [http://www.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Voting%20Machine%20Manipulation](http://www.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Voting%20Machine%20Manipulation) to sum up: Current voting machines use proprietary software which can’t be checked. Hence voting records are unauditable The major manufacturer of electronic voting machines is Diebold, and their board of directors has many ties to the Republican right. It’s a formula for disaster. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2003, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/34 "2003-05-11T07:24:40Z")
No, GeeDubya is not a Fascist. He is a mediocre little twit with a wildly exaggerated sense of his own significance, Elmer Fudd channeling Otto von Bismarck. But he’s not a Fascist. ---
**Author:** ![lander2k2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@lander2k2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lander2k2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/35 "2003-05-12T00:42:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*No, GeeDubya is not a Fascist. He is a mediocre little twit with a wildly exaggerated sense of his own significance, Elmer Fudd channeling Otto von Bismarck. > > But he’s not a Fascist. \*\* C’mon, **elucidator**. Read the thread, man. I didn’t suggest Bush was a fascist. I suggested that there was Fascism in the Whitehouse. I, like you it seems, think that Bush doesn’t have enough IQ points to rub together to be much of anything except a puppet. That said, your metaphor on Bush was pretty astute. ---
**Author:** ![lander2k2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@lander2k2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lander2k2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/36 "2003-05-12T00:52:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Um, _Paranoia Magazine_? > > Sure…whatever. > Look over their articles-UFOs, conspiracy theories, etc. \*\* Wow! What an argument. Well, you’ve convinced me. I see your point now. What was I thinking? You’ve cleared up the precise error in my train of thought and now I can see the whole issue in a new light. Get a handle on that wandering attention of yours and see if you can make it through to the end of the article and try to formulate an argument on the actual issue. Or are raw facts that conflict with your comfortable view of the world just not even worth acknowledging? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/37 "2003-05-12T00:55:49Z")
Well, **lander** , it was a joke, not a contradiction. Structure as follows: obvious understatement, wildly exaggerated overstatement to underline a common, but derogatory, truth, followed by a repitition of the understatement. And this “astute”: thats like, a _good_ thing, right? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/38 "2003-05-12T01:31:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lander2k2 \* > \*\* Or are raw facts that conflict with your comfortable view of the world just not even worth acknowledging? \*\* Even though this was aimed at **Guin** , it has an interesting self-revelatory aspect that deserves comment. Your facts are indeed _raw_. As has been noted, you’ve taken various developments in domestic politics that you don’t like (such as, for God’s sake, the squabble over judicial appointments), strung them together with events on the international scene (GWB - the first president **ever** to undertake a foolish military adventure with the acquiescence of a complacent Congress) to produce a truly _half-baked_ alarmist theory over our impending slide into fascism. It’s a positive recipe for being dismissed as a paranoiac who can’t even read a dictionary (of the components of fascism you quoted, perhaps one (the “belligerent nationalism”) has debatable merit. And while we’re on the subject of usage, it’s _“White House”_ - two separate words, Gunga Din. ---
**Author:** ![lander2k2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@lander2k2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lander2k2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/39 "2003-05-12T02:23:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Well, **lander** , it was a joke, not a contradiction. > > Structure as follows: obvious understatement, wildly exaggerated overstatement to underline a common, but derogatory, truth, followed by a repitition of the understatement. > > And this “astute”: thats like, a _good_ thing, right? \*\* Sorry, my bad. I misunderstood. I got it now. And yes, astute was like a good thing. Clever, sharp, keen-witted; you know - astute. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340/40 "2003-05-12T03:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lander2k2 \* > \*\*Famous last words, eh. > > Ever consider that people voicing those fears (as I am am here) served to put a stop to what might have been? \*\* You just hate the US and hate bush. That doesn’t qualify you as a savior. More like an extremist with an agenda. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-in-the-whitehouse/174340.md?page=3)