# "Fascism is Liberal" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850 "2017-03-23T17:14:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/21 "2017-03-23T20:47:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > everyone else who supports government control of anything, including fascists, communists, etc. Err…you do know that communists are all about abolishing the state, right? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/22 "2017-03-23T20:48:46Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The Bolsheviks fought the Mensheviks does that mean that one of those factions were on the right? > The fascists were politicians and as such fought with anyone who was a threat to their power and allied with anyone who could help them gain power. In Germany the principal political threat were the socialists. Since the german army was relatively conservative and the nazis needed army support they compromised to get that support. It had nothing to do with ideology. You’re right that political opposition and ideological opposition are not one and the same. Nevertheless, fascism _is_ ideologically opposed to socialism. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/23 "2017-03-23T20:49:49Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So where do you place classical liberals? That’s a meaningless term. The only difference between so-called “classical” liberals and modern liberals is 200 years’ worth of knowledge about how society works. The fundamentals are the same. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/24 "2017-03-23T20:50:37Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The OP seems to be arguing that **state funded and controlled art** equals support for the arts as he asserted that a hallmark of fascism is taking away government support for the arts. Government-controlled art is not ‘government support for the arts.’ If you believe they are the same thing then you are confused or misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/25 "2017-03-23T20:51:35Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Here you are attacking the fundamental bedrock of conservatism: the false (as you point out) claim that the Liberal belief is that “government control and regulation are inherently good.” > > Liberals (and/or progressives) believe that most humans will exploit each other when they can, and that government is in a position to be the referee to ensure a level playing field. With good regulations, the entrepreneur who want to do business in a way that doesn’t pollute and exploit has the same chance of success as does the entrepreneur who is willing to pollute and exploit. This makes for an economy that is healthier (in every sense) and more productive. That’s the liberal view. > > The liberal view includes the recognition that just as many private-sector actors will break the social compact while pursuing self-interest, so, too, will public-sector actors. The government must always be overseen: a free press (reporting on that government) as well as protections for whistle-blowers are essential. Liberals see government action and regulation as something that must always be revisited, re-assessed, and revamped as needed. > > But of course these realities do not serve the propaganda requirements of conservatives. A falsified characterization of what liberalism actually is, is a necessity if conservatives are to gain and/or keep power. > > Thus, conservatives created a fabrication, in order to sell the idea that liberalism is a bad, bad thing. They would be _lost_ without their beloved straw man: the ‘liberals who wants the government to control everything’. It is the entire basis of their argumentation; it is the sole rationale of their appeals to the electorate. Put us in power so that we can stop those Librulls from putting the government in charge of your life! > > Like the thread’s topic–the dimwitted attempt to equate liberalism with the random pejorative “fascism”–the ‘liberals seek government control of everything’ straw man is profoundly disingenuous where it isn’t merely obtuse. It is not a strawman. Liberals want to control your kids school curriculum, what products can be sold, where things can be built, how much employees can get paid, how long people can work, who gets to work in certain professions, what can be advertised, how much money can be spent on politics, what can be said about politicians, what kind of guns can be bought and sold, and a myriad of other things. Liberals say they don’t want government in charge of everything but since there is no limiting principle government control grows inexorably. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/26 "2017-03-23T20:52:35Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Government-controlled art is not ‘government support for the arts.’ > > If you believe they are the same thing then you are confused or misinformed. Then enlighten us, o wise one. What is government support for the arts? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/27 "2017-03-23T20:55:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So where do you place classical liberals? Or the much more authoritarian Continental conservative tradition of people like [Joseph de Maistre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_de_Maistre)? Classical liberalism has morphed into conservatism in the US and continental conservatism lives on in various forms of elitism but does not have a contemporary political movement. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/28 "2017-03-23T20:55:48Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Then enlighten us, o wise one. What is government support for the arts? Money. Not direction, not instructions, not management, not control. Not supervision, not guidance, not administration. Funds. Resources. (This is a mystery?) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/29 "2017-03-23T20:57:50Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It is not a strawman. Liberals want to control your kids school curriculum, what products can be sold, where things can be built, how much employees can get paid, how long people can work, who gets to work in certain professions, what can be advertised, how much money can be spent on politics, what can be said about politicians, what kind of guns can be bought and sold, and a myriad of other things. > Liberals say they don’t want government in charge of everything but since there is no limiting principle government control grows inexorably. Your claims are incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/30 "2017-03-23T20:58:11Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > You’re right that political opposition and ideological opposition are not one and the same. > > Nevertheless, fascism _is_ ideologically opposed to socialism. Fascism is a type of socialist heresy. They share many similarities but often clashed in pursuit of power. In Northern Ireland the Catholics fought the Anglicans. That does not mean Catholicism and Anglicanism are opposites. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/31 "2017-03-23T20:59:10Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The OP seems to be arguing that state funded and controlled art equals support for the arts as he asserted that a hallmark of fascism is taking away government support for the arts. Where did I say that state funded art would be under the control of the government? I’ll concede that there is _some_ measure of control in that they decide who receives any grants. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/32 "2017-03-23T20:59:56Z")
Progressivism evolved in this country as an alternative to Communo-Socialism. Conservatives will either deny the existence of a problem or deny that it _is_ a problem. (Climate change and income inequality being only two examples.) Communo-Socialism seeks to exploit the problems, often even believing that it is a viable strategy to make them worse until people see that only they have the answer. Progressives are interested in actually _solving_ the problems, which is why they end up being hated by both extremes. Let’s be honest. Total control of business by government (communism) and total control of government by business (fascism) both end up actually as total control of both by and for the benefit of an unelected, self-defined “elite”. But it is the difference in the underlying sloganeering that provides an opening for keeping the extremes at bay and steering a middle course. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/33 "2017-03-23T21:01:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Fascism is a type of socialist heresy. What an incredibly uninformed statement. Fascism’s very origins are in violent reaction against Italian socialists. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/34 "2017-03-23T21:01:10Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Huh? I never said that fascists or communists believe that government control and regulation are inherently good; I only said that liberals _don’t_ believe this, and therefore, Reagan’s statement that “total government control and regulation” is a liberal philosophy is incorrect. What claim, specifically, are you disagreeing with? If fascist belief in “total government control and regulation” was also a belief that this was a good tool, then when Reagan was discussing this as the fascist belief that’s all he meant by it. Therefore your attempt to distinguish between fascist beliefs and liberal ones by saying that liberals view government control and regulation as being only a tool is an invalid distinction, since this is also what fascist belief is, which was Reagan’s point. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Err…you do know that communists are all about abolishing the state, right? Marxists. In theory. At some unspecified future point. I’m discussing the reality of communist countries. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/35 "2017-03-23T21:02:11Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Total control of business by government (communism) Uh. Communists want to _abolish_ the state. Please make sure you know what you’re talking about before you spout nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/36 "2017-03-23T21:03:12Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m discussing the reality of communist countries. The reality is that if there’s a state, then by definition it’s not communism. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/37 "2017-03-23T21:07:13Z")
I’m not going to argue semantics with you. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/38 "2017-03-23T21:07:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > The greatest flaw as I see it is the **glossing over of authoritarianism** with regards to law and order, and of course the discrediting of the media - **that it is only those in power that can be trusted.** > > I am curious to hear from our board’s right wing why they believe (if they do) that fascism is liberal. (my bold) I think the above bolded parts can be applied to liberals and conservatives, just in different areas. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/39 "2017-03-23T21:14:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > (my bold) > > I think the above bolded parts can be applied to liberals and conservatives, just in different areas. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/40 "2017-03-23T21:14:24Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > What an incredibly uninformed statement. Fascism’s very origins are in violent reaction against Italian socialists. Um… Not really? I mean, Mussolini was literally the leader of the Italian Socialist Party until he was kicked out and created the National Fascist Party. I mean, it’s called National _Socialism_ for a reason, you know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850.md?page=3)