# "Fascism is Liberal" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850 "2017-03-23T17:14:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/61 "2017-03-24T17:35:18Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > You know why he was kicked out? > > Because he rejected the party’s stance on neutrality in WW1. > > Concluding that socialists were a bunch of weak-kneed treasonous pantywaists, he then became violently anti-socialist. > > Or in your world, does nobody ever change their mind? Plenty do. Not Mussolini’s case, who just changed into a more nationalistic brand of socialism. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Aside from the whole “calling it something doesn’t make it so” bit and the specific historical origins of German fascism, which was indeed violently anti-socialist…you do realize that the Nazi party was the _German_ organization, not Italian, right? So it’s really not relevant to understanding anything Mussolini did. Yes. Yes there is a sliiiiight relationship between Fascism and National Socialism. Crazy, I know. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/62 "2017-03-24T17:54:02Z")
Fotheringay-Phipps wrote: “[Obama was a past master at this, where tax increases were transformed into “spending cuts” by use of the term “spending in the tax code”, and the like.]” Actually, that terminology has been around for a while… > **[Tax expenditure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_expenditure)** > > Tax expenditures are government revenue losses from tax exclusions, exemptions, deductions, credits, deferrals, and preferential tax rates. They are a counterpart to direct expenditures, in that they both are forms of government spending. > Tax expenditures function as subsidies for certain activities and alter the horizontal and vertical equity of the basic tax system by giving preferential treatment to those activities. For instance, two people who have the same income can have different effect... Bottom line: A sufficiently targeted “tax break” is indistinguishable from an actual appropriation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/63 "2017-03-24T17:54:10Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is a distinction without a difference. By deciding who gets the money they decide what gets produced. I see that there is a difference. It’s merely funding, not commissioning the art. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/64 "2017-03-24T18:01:33Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Plenty do. Including Mussolini. > [@](#): > > Not Mussolini’s case, who just changed into a more nationalistic brand of socialism. That is not a reality-based statement. > [@](#): > > Yes. Yes there is a sliiiiight relationship between Fascism and National Socialism. Crazy, I know. And none at all with socialism. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/65 "2017-03-24T18:59:42Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > What “practice”? If there’s a state, then by definition you’re not practicing communism. To _practice_ Communism to need to have something _practical_ to put into practice. Ideal stateless Communism is no more practical than ideal stateless Libertopia. Soviet autocracy is a long, _long_ way away from practical Communism – in fact, it is really not all that far from the kind of plutocratic pseudo-Democratic Capitalism that the US is driving toward. At least, from the perspective of the man in the street. I mean, what is a defining moment in Communism? May Day. And what does May Day represent? A commemoration of Haymarket. And what did Haymarket yield? The 8-hour day, the 40-hour week and overtime. How dreadfully subversive. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/66 "2017-03-24T19:42:20Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What they were writing about was classical liberalism, modern liberalism is a descendant of progressivism not classical liberalism. Aah, I get you, so not \*true \*liberalism, eh? 😉 It only \*happens \*to share the ideals of liberty and equality with modern liberalism but really it’s _completely different. Sure, whatever_ you say… ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/67 "2017-03-24T21:08:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Aah, I get you, so not \*true \*liberalism, eh? 😉 > > It only \*happens \*to share the ideals of liberty and equality with modern liberalism but really it’s _completely different. Sure, whatever_ you say… Actually, modern liberalism does not share many of the ideals of liberty and equality with classical liberalism. Modern liberalism goes down the whole positive rights path with things like ‘right to health care’ or ‘right to a living wage’. Classical liberalism went down the negative rights path, things like ‘private property’ and ‘freedom of religion’. Positive rights confer a duty while negative rights don’t. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/68 "2017-03-24T21:31:31Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Actually, modern liberalism does not share many of the ideals of liberty and equality with classical liberalism. Yes, it does. > [@](#): > > Modern liberalism goes down the whole positive rights path with things like ‘right to health care’ or ‘right to a living wage’. Classical liberalism went down the negative rights path, things like ‘private property’ and ‘freedom of religion’. There’s no fundamental difference. The only difference is the benefit of 200+ years of improved understanding of how societies work; modern liberalism isn’t a change in principles or thought processes, but merely applying the same principles and processes in light of new knowledge. Take a classical liberal, change nothing about them except give them that new knowledge, and you’ve got a modern liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/69 "2017-03-28T18:30:09Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Take a classical liberal, change nothing about them except give them that new knowledge, and you’ve got a modern liberal. You also have to teach them to go into a lathered frenzy of self-righteousness whenever a black criminal gets shot or someone with a penis and a dress can’t use the ladies’ room. Teach him to label anyone who disagrees in the slightest as a racist and a bigot - then you got a modern liberal. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/70 "2017-03-28T18:43:52Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > That sounds like notruescotsmanism to me. But frankly, if you can tell me what’s the big difference between Hitler’s and Stalin’s policies, I’d like to know. Hitler’s ideology was inherently racist; Aryans were the superior race and you were either born an Aryan or you weren’t. You couldn’t convert and become an Aryan. Stalin’s ideology wasn’t racist. Anyone, in theory, could become a communist. The communists even gained propaganda points by having public displays of the former aristocrats and capitalists who had been “re-educated” and now embraced communism. Communism, especially in the Soviet Union, grew out of labor unions. In fact, that’s what a soviet was - a group of workers. Nazism was strongly anti-union and Hitler abolished labor unions when he came to power. The communist nationalized all industries and abolished private property. The Nazis did not. ---
**Author:** ![CosmicManiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CosmicManiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CosmicManiac)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/71 "2017-03-28T18:44:36Z")
Reagan was on to something here. Jonah Goldberg, a prominent conservative journalist, wrote a whole book about this fascism’s roots in liberalism and progressivism, entitled _Liberal Fascism_. Fascism isn’t a conservative concept, it’s an Big Government totalitarian one, wherein the country has a leader has a total autocratic dictatorship in the palm of his hands, with no checks & balances in the federal legislature to stop him from doing whatever the hell he wants, no matter how extralegal it is. You ever watch the Justice League TV show? They had a whole episode called _Justice Lords_, where Lex Luthor becomes President of the U.S., and Superman kills him in retaliation for his murder of the Flash, and then proceeds to establish world peace over the entire globe after becoming a totalitarian dictator. He was the leader of the Justice Lords, along with Lords Batman, Martian Manhunter, John Stewart and Ladies Hawkgirl and Wonder Woman. So, fascism is not right-wing. We conservatives are staunch opponents of Big Government, as well as a tyrannical government, which is what fascism entails. It is reactionary, not conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/72 "2017-03-28T18:45:54Z")
Yes, Jonah Goldberg is a dishonest purveyor of false memes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/73 "2017-03-28T18:46:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You also have to teach them to go into a lathered frenzy of self-righteousness whenever a black criminal gets shot or someone with a penis and a dress can’t use the ladies’ room. Teach him to label anyone who disagrees in the slightest as a racist and a bigot - then you got a modern liberal. You who’s always get called racist and bigoted? Racists and bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/74 "2017-03-28T18:52:46Z")
> [@CosmicManiac](#): > > Reagan was on to something here. Jonah Goldberg, a prominent conservative journalist, wrote a whole book about this fascism’s roots in liberalism and progressivism, entitled _Liberal Fascism_. > > Fascism isn’t a conservative concept, it’s an Big Government totalitarian one, wherein the country has a leader has a total autocratic dictatorship in the palm of his hands, with no checks & balances in the federal legislature to stop him from doing whatever the hell he wants, no matter how extralegal it is. > > You ever watch the Justice League TV show? They had a whole episode called _Justice Lords_, where Lex Luthor becomes President of the U.S., and Superman kills him in retaliation for his murder of the Flash, and then proceeds to establish world peace over the entire globe after becoming a totalitarian dictator. He was the leader of the Justice Lords, along with Lords Batman, Martian Manhunter, John Stewart and Ladies Hawkgirl and Wonder Woman. > > So, fascism is not right-wing. We conservatives are staunch opponents of Big Government, as well as a tyrannical government, which is what fascism entails. It is reactionary, not conservative. You shouldn’t get your political ideology from cartoons. You have to distinguish between what conservatives say they believe in and what they actually do. Conservatives claim they oppose big government but they always seek to expand the size and power of government when they have control of it (and Reagan himself was certainly an example of that). Conservatives are apparently such staunch opponents of Big Government that they want the biggest strongest government possible in order to fight it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/75 "2017-03-28T19:16:57Z")
Distinguishing a right to property and a right to health case by calling one a negative right and the other a positive right as if that defines the difference between liberty and authoritarianism is a laughably delusional bit of propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/76 "2017-03-28T19:26:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You also have to teach them to go into a lathered frenzy of self-righteousness whenever a black criminal gets shot or someone with a penis and a dress can’t use the ladies’ room. Teach him to label anyone who disagrees in the slightest as a racist and a bigot - then you got a modern liberal. Damn all these modern liberals! They’re all terrible and liars and evil and dishonest and stupid! It couldn’t be that you’ve had some reasonable and thoughtful discussions with “modern liberals” on this very board, could it? That’d be ridiculous! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/77 "2017-03-28T19:38:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You who’s always get called racist and bigoted? Racists and bigots. So, eventually, does anyone who deviates from liberal orthodoxy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/78 "2017-03-28T19:42:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Distinguishing a right to property and a right to health case by calling one a negative right and the other a positive right as if that defines the difference between liberty and authoritarianism is a laughably delusional bit of propaganda. Do you understand the distinction between my using force to defend you using your own property as you see fit, and my using force to remove your property to use as I see fit? Liberty is you doing whatever you want. Authoritarianism is you doing whatever I want. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/79 "2017-03-28T19:46:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Liberty is you doing whatever you want. Authoritarianism is you doing whatever I want. And which political party is telling people who they can get married to and which public restroom they can use? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/80 "2017-03-28T19:46:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So, eventually, does anyone who deviates from liberal orthodoxy. > > Regards, > Shodan God liberals are terrible. Please tell me more about how I’m terrible, and be sure to sweep millions of people into this group of terrible people without being specific. It’s important when saying negative things about groups of people to lump them in with as large a group as possible, just in case someone might have the mistaken idea that big groups are actually usually quite diverse and most of them probably have pretty rational reasons for their beliefs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850.md?page=5)