# "Fascism is Liberal" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850 "2017-03-23T17:14:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/101 "2017-03-29T18:47:53Z")
> [@NoSlippin](#): > > For all you Lefty Libs who seem to be under the mistaken assumption that Leftist Libs cannot be fascist, you should read Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg! I personally don’t care whether you agree or not, that’s your choice. Libs are being fascist in America today! 😂 Before I do, can you tell us your definition of “fascist”. Also, “liberal”, for the heck of it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/102 "2017-03-29T19:08:17Z")
Reading a Jonah Goldberg book is on my list, I swear. It’s just way down below “build full-size Taj Mahal out of used chewing gum” and “naked cuddle party with honey badgers.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/103 "2017-03-29T19:08:20Z")
> [@NoSlippin](#): > > For all you Lefty Libs who seem to be under the mistaken assumption that Leftist Libs cannot be fascist, you should read Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg! I personally don’t care whether you agree or not, that’s your choice. Libs are being fascist in America today! 😂 You must be new, in reality even historians did rip Jonah Goldberg a new one years ago: > **[The Scholarly Flaws of "Liberal Fascism"](https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/the-scholarly-flaws-of-liberal-fascism)** > > Jonah Goldberg tells us he wrote this book to get even.  The liberals started it by “insist\[ing\] that conservatism has connections with fascism” (p.  22).  Conservatives “sit dumbfounded by the nastiness of the slander” (p. ... > [@](#): > > Goldberg simply omits those parts of fascist history that fit badly with his demonstration. His method is to examine fascist rhetoric, but to ignore how fascist movements functioned in practice. Since the Nazis recruited their first mass following among the economic and social losers of Weimar Germany, they could sound anti-capitalist at the beginning. Goldberg makes a big thing of the early programs of the Nazi and Italian Fascist Parties, and publishes the Nazi Twenty-five Points as an appendix. A closer look would show that the Nazis’ anti-capitalism was a selective affair, opposed to international capital and finance capital, department stores and Jewish businesses, but nowhere opposed to private property per se or favorable to a transfer of all the means of production to public ownership. > > A still closer look at how the fascist parties obtained power and then exercised power would show how little these early programs corresponded to fascist practice. Mussolini acquired powerful backing by hiring his black-shirted squadristi out to property owners for the destruction of socialist and Communist unions and parties. They destroyed the farm workers’ organizations in the Po Valley in 1921-1922 by violent nightly raids that made them the de facto government of northeastern Italy. Hitler’s brownshirts fought Communists for control of the streets of Berlin, and claimed to be Germany’s best bulwark against the revolutionary threat that still appeared to be growing in 1932. Goldberg prefers the abstractions of rhetoric to all this history, noting only that fascism and Communism were “rivals.” So his readers will not learn anything about how the Nazis and Italian Fascists got into power or exercised it. As I posted in a different older thread: that link is only a part of many historians that replied to Goldberg and this silly idea, as pointed before, virtually all Europeans that experienced living under fascists know that they were not the friends of liberals or leftists. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/104 "2017-03-29T19:17:00Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Reading a Jonah Goldberg book is on my list, I swear. It’s just way down below “build full-size Taj Mahal out of used chewing gum” and “naked cuddle party with honey badgers.” There is always [Cliffs Notes](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2008/01/am_i_a_fascist.html). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/105 "2017-03-29T20:24:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You must be new, in reality even historians did rip Jonah Goldberg a new one years ago: > > [The Scholarly Flaws of "Liberal Fascism" | History News Network](http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/122231) > > As I posted in a different older thread: that link is only a part of many historians that replied to Goldberg and this silly idea, as pointed before, virtually all Europeans that experienced living under fascists know that they were not the friends of liberals or leftists. If fighting with socialists makes you not on the left then the communists in Russia and the anarchists in Spain were not on the left. What did Stalin do leftists and liberals? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/106 "2017-03-29T20:35:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I know enough history to point out that business owners did know that the option then in the 1930’s was to have the ownership of their business to disappear under the communists. What took place was that many business then did not mind much to become a tool of the fascist government when many did like the results under a fascist regime (like the Nazi government getting rid of unions). The reason the fascists got rid of the unions was the same reason the soviet communists did. Under fascism there was a state controlled union every worker was forced to join. So instead of saying that the Nazis got rid of unions it is just as accurate to say that union membership was compulsory. Businesses who did not cooperate with the national union could be taken away from their owners. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/107 "2017-03-29T20:49:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If fighting with socialists makes you not on the left then the communists in Russia and the anarchists in Spain were not on the left. What did Stalin do leftists and liberals? You need to take it with Goldberg, what you miss is that for simplifying things like that is that Goldberg was called a hack by the serious historians. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/108 "2017-03-29T21:05:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The reason the fascists got rid of the unions was the same reason the soviet communists did. Under fascism there was a state controlled union every worker was forced to join. So instead of saying that the Nazis got rid of unions it is just as accurate to say that union membership was compulsory. Businesses who did not cooperate with the national union could be taken away from their owners. No one takes seriously the idea that the Nazi “labor” front represented the workers. > **[Nazi policy towards workers - Nazi economic, social and racial policy - WJEC...](https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zw6s7p3/revision/3)** > > Learn and revise about Nazi economic, social and racial policy for WJEC Unit 2 Germany in Transition with BBC Bitesize. > [@](#): > > Trade unions and the DAF > > Workers’ trade unions ensure that workers get fair wages and working conditions. Hitler didn’t like trade unions. He believed that they supported socialism and communism. > > Trade unions were banned in Germany in May 1933. Their money was taken away from them. Their leaders were arrested. > > The German Labour Front was established in their place, or the DAF. Every worker in Germany was now a member of the same trade union, which was controlled by the Nazis. The DAF managed discipline, wages and working hours. > > Results > > ``` > [ul] > > ``` > > [li]Working hours were increased.[/li][li] Wages were frozen.[/li][li] It was impossible to show disapproval about this.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![NoSlippin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7bcc69/32.png) [@NoSlippin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoSlippin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/109 "2017-03-30T15:44:17Z")
@Bryan Ekers, see earlier post for what I believe is fascist. Liberalism seeks tyranny because it’s adherents are attempting to use both psychological and physical violence to force it upon the masses! Liberalism as practiced in the US, ostracizes any opposing or differing ideology outside their own. Liberals desire a Left based totalitarian regime. Liberals have been attempting to control media communications by using it as propaganda to control the narrative, wherein they portray anything Conservative in a negative light, while expounding Liberal viewpoints in the positive, even when they are not. At times embracing and promoting falsehoods to the masses. Liberalism is fascist and exclusive rather than inclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/110 "2017-03-30T15:46:01Z")
> [@NoSlippin](#): > > @Bryan Ekers, see earlier post for what I believe is fascist. Liberalism seeks tyranny because it’s adherents are attempting to use both psychological and physical violence to force tit upon the masses! Liberalism as practiced in the US, ostracizes any opposing or differing ideology outside there own. Liberals desire a Left based totalitarian regime. Liberals have been attempting to control media communications by using it as propaganda to control the narrative, wherein the portray anything Conservative in a negative light, while expounding Liberal viewpoints in the positive, even when they are not. At times using embracing and promoting falsehoods to the masses. Liberalism is fascist and exclusive rather than inclusive. When did you first decide to divorce yourself from the reality-based community? Were there children involved? It’s always toughest on the children. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/111 "2017-03-30T16:00:34Z")
> [@NoSlippin](#): > > @Bryan Ekers, see earlier post for what I believe is fascist. Liberalism seeks tyranny because it’s adherents are attempting to use both psychological and physical violence to force it upon the masses! Liberalism as practiced in the US, ostracizes any opposing or differing ideology outside their own. Liberals desire a Left based totalitarian regime. Liberals have been attempting to control media communications by using it as propaganda to control the narrative, wherein they portray anything Conservative in a negative light, while expounding Liberal viewpoints in the positive, even when they are not. At times embracing and promoting falsehoods to the masses. Liberalism is fascist and exclusive rather than inclusive. This is a good description of the fantasy-world liberals that reside in the imaginations of many radio hosts, but not of real world liberals. Fortunately, there are lots of real world liberals on this message board, and we’d be happy to help you learn about how liberals in the real world actually think. Please ask us questions! We want to help you learn! ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/112 "2017-03-30T16:31:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You need to take it with Goldberg, what you miss is that for simplifying things like that is that Goldberg was called a hack by the serious historians. What did the historians with a sense of humor call him? The problem is that your serious historian made an easily refuted claim. If they have other claims that are not easily refutable, maybe you should try those. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/113 "2017-03-30T16:34:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > No one takes seriously the idea that the Nazi “labor” front represented the workers. > > [Nazi policy towards workers - Nazi economic, social and racial policy - WJEC - GCSE History Revision - WJEC - BBC Bitesize](http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/tch_wjec/germany19291947/2economicsocialpolicy2.shtml) Fascist labor unions like communist labor unions represented the government and not the workers. It has nothing to do with whether the ideology is leftist or not. In fact the government taking over private enterprises and using them for state purposes is usually associated with leftist governments. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/114 "2017-03-30T16:42:14Z")
> [@NoSlippin](#): > > @Bryan Ekers, see earlier post for what I believe is fascist. Liberalism seeks tyranny because it’s adherents are attempting to use both psychological and physical violence to force it upon the masses! Liberalism as practiced in the US, ostracizes any opposing or differing ideology outside their own. Liberals desire a Left based totalitarian regime. Liberals have been attempting to control media communications by using it as propaganda to control the narrative, wherein they portray anything Conservative in a negative light, while expounding Liberal viewpoints in the positive, even when they are not. At times embracing and promoting falsehoods to the masses. Liberalism is fascist and exclusive rather than inclusive. Do you live in Bizzaro World? Because you are describing conservatives perfectly, not liberals. The Tea Party perfected the art of primarying any conservative candidate who did not adhere to their specific dictums. And it worked…a lot of incumbent republicans were kicked out of office. How many liberals were sent packing because they failed some litmus test? Even today Grover Norquist stomps up and down the halls of congress with “The Pledge” from his Americans for Tax Reform that he arm twists republican members of congress to sign and woe to the person who doesn’t. Physical violence writ large is almost exclusively the province of conservatives. Witness the treatment by the police of Occupy Wall Street folks. Or the massacre at Kent State or any of numerous times union strikes have met with extreme violence. I cannot think of anything similar happening to conservative protestors. And when it comes to demonization of the other side in the media conservatives have that market cornered. Go watch Alex Jones (president Trump watches him). Or read Breitbart news. Or listen to Rush Limbaugh. There is nothing comparable on the left that have anywhere near the listener/reader numbers that those do. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/115 "2017-03-30T16:56:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you live in Bizzaro World? Because you are describing conservatives perfectly, not liberals. > > The Tea Party perfected the art of primarying any conservative candidate who did not adhere to their specific dictums. And it worked…a lot of incumbent republicans were kicked out of office. How many liberals were sent packing because they failed some litmus test? Well, if the Sandroids have their way… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/116 "2017-03-30T17:03:09Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Well, if the Sandroids have their way… I think the Sandroids are just demanding that liberal candidates actually be liberal rather than the corporatists, can barely tell them apart from conservatives, that so many have become. _“The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That’s the only difference.”_ ~Ralph Nader ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/117 "2017-03-30T17:08:57Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > When did you first decide to divorce yourself from the reality-based community? This is close enough down the path towards personal insults where you should avoid going any further. Do not personalize arguments in this fashion. * * * > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you live in Bizzaro World? This is on the same path, but not nearly as close. Please dial it back. [/moderating ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/118 "2017-03-30T17:43:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you live in Bizzaro World? Because you are describing conservatives perfectly, not liberals. > > The Tea Party perfected the art of primarying any conservative candidate who did not adhere to their specific dictums. And it worked…a lot of incumbent republicans were kicked out of office. How many liberals were sent packing because they failed some litmus test? Even today Grover Norquist stomps up and down the halls of congress with “The Pledge” from his Americans for Tax Reform that he arm twists republican members of congress to sign and woe to the person who doesn’t. > > Physical violence writ large is almost exclusively the province of conservatives. Witness the treatment by the police of Occupy Wall Street folks. Or the massacre at Kent State or any of numerous times union strikes have met with extreme violence. I cannot think of anything similar happening to conservative protestors. > > And when it comes to demonization of the other side in the media conservatives have that market cornered. Go watch Alex Jones (president Trump watches him). Or read Breitbart news. Or listen to Rush Limbaugh. There is nothing comparable on the left that have anywhere near the listener/reader numbers that those do. How many Republicans were kicked out of office by the Tea Party. Around 5 in the Congress. That is not alot. Physical violence is very common among liberal protesters. There are the violent protests to Milo in Berkeley, the Middlebury college protesters who assaulted the professor, the violent protests in Ferguson, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/119 "2017-03-30T17:57:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The Tea Party perfected the art of primarying any conservative candidate who did not adhere to their specific dictums. And it worked…a lot of incumbent republicans were kicked out of office. How many liberals were sent packing because they failed some litmus test? I don’t think the TP had any litmus test. They did tend to oppose career politicians. The Democrats ousted 2 sitting senators in primaries (Lieberman and Specter) in recent memory; I don’t know if there were congresspeople ousted too, but it wouldn’t surprise me. In general, it would appear that leftists are far more prone to violence against those who oppose them than rightists. This is manifested on the international scene, where far-left groups are among the leading causes of terrorist-related deaths, and here in America, as you can see from the anti-Trump supporter violence since his candidacy took off. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/120 "2017-03-30T18:00:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In general, it would appear that leftists are far more prone to violence against those who oppose them than rightists. This is manifested on the international scene, where far-left groups are among the leading causes of terrorist-related deaths, and here in America, as you can see from the anti-Trump supporter violence since his candidacy took off. I think you’ll need a cite for this claim (especially about international terrorism caused by “leftists”, unless “leftist” is twisted to the point that anyone not in the US Republican party qualifies). My impression would be that the opposite is true internationally, while in the US, there has historically been far, far more “rightist” violence (Jim Crow, the KKK, etc.), and in recent times it’s been somewhat equivalent amounts from both sides. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850.md?page=7)