# "Fascism is Liberal" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850 "2017-03-23T17:14:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/121 "2017-03-30T18:01:19Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Physical violence is very common among liberal protesters. There are the violent protests to Milo in Berkeley, the Middlebury college protesters who assaulted the professor, the violent protests in Ferguson, etc. That’s three examples! And an etc! Yes, that’s the definition of “very common”. In which case violence was also “very common” at Trump rallies. When the crowd turned on a protester at an Obama rally, Obama calmed them down. Trump encouraged the crowd to punch protesters at his rallied, some of whom did. [And here’s **five** examples of Trump supporters attacking protesters](http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/06/06/trump-supporters-pepper-spray-non-violent-protesters-video/). And the list even comes with an etc! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/122 "2017-03-30T18:05:19Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Fascist labor unions like communist labor unions represented the government and not the workers. It has nothing to do with whether the ideology is leftist or not. In fact the government taking over private enterprises and using them for state purposes is usually associated with leftist governments. My cat’s breath smell like cat food. In any case the point was to show once again how much of a hack historian Goldberg is. Communists also do not like to see liberal ideas among their fake unions either. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/123 "2017-03-30T18:11:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think the TP had any litmus test. They did tend to oppose career politicians. > > The Democrats ousted 2 sitting senators in primaries (Lieberman and Specter) in recent memory; I don’t know if there were congresspeople ousted too, but it wouldn’t surprise me. One of whom wasn’t a Democrat and the other who had just become a Democrat because he was getting primaried from the far right by Pat Toomey. Not great examples as such; in fact you ought to add Specter to the Tea Party tally. > [@](#): > > In general, it would appear that leftists are far more prone to violence against those who oppose them than rightists. This is manifested on the international scene, where far-left groups are among the leading causes of terrorist-related deaths, and here in America, as you can see from the anti-Trump supporter violence since his candidacy took off. Translation: “I am referencing the international scene because the data shows that [right-wing terrorism is doing quite well in the US at the moment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#United_States) (and [Europe](https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/commissioner-warns-of-growing-menace-of-right-wing-terrorism-in-eu/), for that matter), so I need to lump in all those Latin American types to bury that. Also, I will conveniently ignore pro-Trump violence.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/124 "2017-03-30T18:35:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think you’ll need a cite for this claim (especially about international terrorism caused by “leftists”, unless “leftist” is twisted to the point that anyone not in the US Republican party qualifies). My impression would be that the opposite is true internationally, I said “far-left”, not leftist. Source and some discussion of validity beginning in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18875731&postcount=29). YMMV on US political violence, but it seems pretty clear to me. I don’t think I’ve seen a single example of anyone being attacked simply for publically expressing support for liberal or Democratic causes, while numerous people have been attacked just for wearing MAGA hats or the like. All instances of pro-Trump violence have been directed at anti-Trump protestors, and even there it’s most frequently left-wingers looking to attack (e.g. antifa and the like). > [@Gyrate](#): > > One of whom wasn’t a Democrat and the other who had just become a Democrat because he was getting primaried from the far right by Pat Toomey. Not great examples as such; in fact you ought to add Specter to the Tea Party tally. Joe Lieberman was a long-time Democrat, and as you may recall, the Democratic VP nominee in 2000. Specter should probably count both ways. (He served as a Republican for many years, but he was a moderate who had been a Democrat prior to turning Republican.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/125 "2017-03-30T18:43:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I said “far-left”, not leftist. > > Source and some discussion of validity beginning in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18875731&postcount=29). I found almost nothing about leftist/rightist political ideology in this link. There were a few communist groups mentioned, but nothing about a majority (or even significant minority) of deaths coming from them or anything like that. > [@](#): > > YMMV on US political violence, but it seems pretty clear to me. I don’t think I’ve seen a single example of anyone being attacked simply for publically expressing support for liberal or Democratic causes, while numerous people have been attacked just for wearing MAGA hats or the like. All instances of pro-Trump violence have been directed at anti-Trump protestors, and even there it’s most frequently left-wingers looking to attack (e.g. antifa and the like). Whether this is true or not, this isn’t exactly what you said earlier – your earlier statement (…prone to violence against those who oppose them) would include killers like Dylan Roof and Anders Breivik – this paragraph’s description (…attacked for publically expressing support for liberal or Democratic causes) would not. In either case, it’s far from clear to me that there are more leftists/far-leftists/liberals engaged in violence than their equivalent on the right/far-right/conservative side. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/126 "2017-03-30T18:46:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I found almost nothing about leftist/rightist political ideology in this link. There were a few communist groups mentioned, but nothing about a majority (or even significant minority) of deaths coming from them or anything like that. I said “among the leading causes”, not “majority”. The data breaks down the numbers and you can see they’re significant. > [@](#): > > Whether this is true or not, this isn’t exactly what you said earlier – your earlier statement (…prone to violence against those who oppose them) would include killers like Dylan Roof and Anders Breivik – this paragraph’s description (…attacked for publically [sic] expressing support for liberal or Democratic causes) would not. In either case, it’s far from clear to me that there are more leftists/far-leftists/liberals engaged in violence than their equivalent on the right/far-right/conservative side. I don’t recall Breivik’s deal just now, but Dylan Roof was most decidedly not a right-winger trying to suppress LW viewpoints. We may be talking past each other here. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/127 "2017-03-30T18:50:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I said “among the leading causes”, not “majority”. The data breaks down the numbers and you can see they’re significant. “Among the leading causes” is essentially meaningless in terms of who is “far more prone” to violence. Far-right groups are likely also “among the leading causes”. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall Breivik’s deal just now, but Dylan Roof was most decidedly not a right-winger trying to suppress LW viewpoints. We may be talking past each other here. So it’s no longer “against those who oppose them” – now it’s just about suppressing viewpoints? If so, this isn’t what you said earlier. Dylan Roof definitely qualifies as someone trying to kill “those who opposed him”, by his definition of who opposed him (and probably his victims’ too). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/128 "2017-03-30T18:57:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Among the leading causes” is essentially meaningless in terms of who is “far more prone” to violence. Far-right groups are likely also “among the leading causes”. Not significant enough to be mentioned in that report, anyway. They identify “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” as being responsible for 77 deaths, less than a tenth of what they attribute to the various leftist groups. > [@](#): > > So it’s no longer “against those who oppose them” – now it’s just about suppressing viewpoints? If so, this isn’t what you said earlier. Dylan Roof definitely qualifies as someone trying to kill “those who opposed him”, by his definition of who opposed him (and probably his victims’ too). I thought it was clear that “opposing them” in context meant opposing them politically. [FWIW, there’s no doubt that black people oppose white supremacists, but that’s not why a white supremacist would want to kill them - that’s a very circular way of looking at things.] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/129 "2017-03-30T19:05:36Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Not significant enough to be mentioned in that report, anyway. They identify “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” as being responsible for 77 deaths, less than a tenth of what they attribute to the various leftist groups. They identify several perpetrators that can be (IMO) characterized as far-right – Sunni extremists, Lord’s Resistance Army, and Anders Breivik himself (who killed enough people to be mentioned all by himself, I suppose). > [@](#): > > I thought it was clear that “opposing them” in context meant opposing them politically. > > [FWIW, there’s no doubt that black people oppose white supremacists, but that’s not why a white supremacist would want to kill them - that’s a very circular way of looking at things.] I’m sure Roof’s victims opposed him politically/ideologically, and you specifically said “…against those who oppose them”, not specifying a requirement of a mode of opposition (or separating bigotry as a motivation). Even if you’re excluding attacks motivated by bigotry (which might, of course, also exclude many of the far-left incidents), I’m not convinced either side is more or less responsible by any significant amount. Perhaps, with enough finagling and twists of language, a definition could be crafted specifically such that the vast majority of far-right incidents of violence would be excluded, while far-left incidents would remain. But what would be the point of that? Dylan Roof and Anders Breivik were political extremists, with political and ideological motivations for their violence. Why are they excluded from this discussion? Would the KKK bombings and lynchings during the CR movement also be excluded? That seems kind of ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/130 "2017-03-30T19:08:43Z")
The point is about extreme intolerance of other viewpoints to the point of violence. [Counting Islamic extremist terrorism as right wing violence is ludicrous IMO.] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/131 "2017-03-30T19:13:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The point is about extreme intolerance of other viewpoints to the point of violence. > > [Counting Islamic extremist terrorism as right wing violence is ludicrous IMO.] Excluding violence motivated by white supremacism from this sort of discussion is far more ludicrous, IMO. In my understanding, the vast majority of political and ideological violence in US history was driven by white supremacism in various forms. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/132 "2017-03-30T19:18:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Counting Islamic extremist terrorism as right wing violence is ludicrous IMO. The religious fanatics are on your side. The atheist fanatics are on our side. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/133 "2017-03-30T19:19:32Z")
> [@NoSlippin](#): > > @Bryan Ekers, see earlier post for what I believe is fascist. Liberalism seeks tyranny because it’s adherents are attempting to use both psychological and physical violence to force it upon the masses! Liberalism as practiced in the US, ostracizes any opposing or differing ideology outside their own. Liberals desire a Left based totalitarian regime. Liberals have been attempting to control media communications by using it as propaganda to control the narrative, wherein they portray anything Conservative in a negative light, while expounding Liberal viewpoints in the positive, even when they are not. At times embracing and promoting falsehoods to the masses. Liberalism is fascist and exclusive rather than inclusive. This response is complete gibberish to me. I get that you’re defining “Liberal” as “bad”, but I see no rational argument in support of your definition, so I have no incentive to take it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/134 "2017-03-30T19:25:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The religious fanatics are on your side. The atheist fanatics are on our side. Well if we get to draft our teams like that, there’s no limit. How about: “_the pedophiles and bestiality aficionados are on your side. The virgins are on our side_”? Not much point in this, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/135 "2017-03-30T19:25:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Counting Islamic extremist terrorism as right wing violence is ludicrous IMO.] To the extent that “right wing” corresponds with “conservative” corresponds with “keeping or restoring theocratic rule”… Islamic terrorism looks classically right-wing, as do the terrorist thugs of Kristallnacht and the perpetrators of religion-based atrocities of 1990s Yugoslavia. It would be perfectly fair for the right-wing to acknowledge the extreme forms of their policies, if they want to insist that the left-wing acknowledge the extreme forms of their own. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/136 "2017-03-30T19:32:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well if we get to draft our teams like that, there’s no limit. How about: “_the pedophiles and bestiality aficionados are on your side. The virgins are on our side_”? Not much point in this, IMO. There’s not much point, either, IMO, if the largest (by far!) source of ideological violence through US history doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/137 "2017-03-30T19:33:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Joe Lieberman was a long-time Democrat, and as you may recall, the Democratic VP nominee in 2000. Lieberman was an Independent from 2006 on, not a democrat. He did caucus with the democrats but he was very conservative on most issues. You’d really have to contort your definitions to label him a liberal, especially at the end of his career. Not sure why dems didn’t kick him out sooner (I think it was so the dems technically had 51 votes with him in). Calling yourself a democrat does not make you one. The proper name for North Korea is the “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea”. Having “democratic” in their name does not make it so. Same with Lieberman. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/138 "2017-03-30T19:42:54Z")
Since 9/11 terrorist deaths in the US: Jihadists: 95 Right Wing: 51 Left Wing: 5 [SOURCE](https://www.newamerica.org/in-depth/terrorism-in-america/what-threat-united-states-today/) Right wing violence would be more than Jihadist in the US except the Orlando night club shooting was a big one that tipped the balance for the Jihadists. > [@](#): > > Of these 382 law enforcement agencies, 74 percent reported anti-government extremism as one of the top three terrorist threats in their jurisdiction; 39 percent listed extremism connected with al Qaeda or like-minded terrorist organizations. Environmental extremism was identified as a top threat by a third of the agencies. > > SOURCE: [Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security -](https://sites.duke.edu/tcths/files/2013/06/Kurzman_Schanzer_Law_Enforcement_Assessment_of_the_Violent_Extremist_Threat_final.pdf) (PDF) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/139 "2017-03-30T20:02:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Lieberman was an Independent from 2006 on, not a democrat. He did caucus with the democrats but he was very conservative on most issues. You’d really have to contort your definitions to label him a liberal, especially at the end of his career. Not sure why dems didn’t kick him out sooner (I think it was so the dems technically had 51 votes with him in). He became an independent as a result of his losing a primary. He was a Democrat at that time. What you’re saying sounds exactly like a TP guy explaining why they voted out the RINOs. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850/140 "2017-03-30T20:24:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The atheist fanatics are on our side. Compared to previous reactionary movements the alt-right tends to be more atheistic, especially the younger cohort. I hope to someday read how theocracies and the divine right of kings are liberal ideas, since there’s no bigger government than the one in Heaven. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fascism-is-liberal/782850.md?page=8)