# Fast Food Hoax (strip searches) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713 "2005-10-11T04:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/141 "2005-10-15T00:21:40Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Now he’s BLEEDIN’ on me!!! :eek: Didn’t anyone tell you that going to _“The fingers in the ears and the high pitched ‘LALALALALALALALA’ screetch”_ card over and over again is not a good approach to shore up your argument? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/142 "2005-10-15T01:49:35Z")
I have long held that Milgram’s study teaches us less about fear of authority than the sadistic streak of average people, and am glad to have that feeling corroborated here. People seem to go about trying to interpret facts to come to conclusions OTHER than that a lot of people – perhaps half – are complete assholes. Despite the complete and overwhelming evidence that they are. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/143 "2005-10-15T01:58:42Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I have long held that Milgram’s study teaches us less about fear of authority than the sadistic streak of average people, and am glad to have that feeling corroborated here. I mostly agree with you about Milgram, but is _glad_ quite the word? There’s something to be explored in the combination of sadism and “following orders” – as if it gives you a free ride to work out all your issues on another person. The [Courier-Journal article](http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051009/NEWS01/510090392) briefly mentioned one of these phone dupes who was so “with the program” that when the victim’s parents showed up, _he attacked them._ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/144 "2005-10-15T02:12:20Z")
Another thing that might have made her think the strip search was kosher: when I was in high school, we received a memo that the school would be legally permitted to perform strip searches on students in case of suspected crime (theft, drugs, etc). As long as it was done with two faculty members of the same sex as the student, or something like that. (And let me tell you, my mother was spitting nails over the whole thing). So, perhaps it’s not unreasonable for this girl to assume things were on the up and up here. ---
**Author:** ![OleOneEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f14d63/32.png) [@OleOneEye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OleOneEye)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/145 "2005-10-15T02:33:08Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Apparently, essentially the same thing she did when “confronted” by a woman her same size. The threat was different. Nix was threatening her physically; Summers was threatening her job. Remember, she’s responsible for supporting herself and dear ol’ mom. > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Do you agree that a less submissive 17 year old would not have ended up in the same predicament? How many 17 year olds in this country are responsible for supporting their families? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/146 "2005-10-15T03:05:50Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Here’s the main difference I see. When Ogborn took off her clothes it’s reasonable to assume that she was aware of the authorities requiring strip searches in other situations and that participating in one would demonstrate her innocence and allow her to keep her job. It is reasonable to assume this? Why? In what other circumstances are managers of fast food restaurants allowed to conduct strip searches? > [@](#): > > While submitting to a strip search may be a reasonable way of demonstrating that one is not concealing stolen property anywhere on one’s body, I’ve no idea what legal purpose receiving a blow job could serve. Jesus, people. You should never consent to a strip search by a manager at a fast food restaurant or anywhere else! It’s not fucking reasonable. It’s not reasonable to comply with commands to dance around, bend over and whatnot to see if anything shakes out. The cook knew it was not reasonable to examine the girl and describe her. The maintenance man knew that the entire circumstance was not reasonable. NONE OF IT IS FUCKING REASONABLE. DON’T BE FUCKING DUPED LIKE THIS - EVER! > [@](#): > > At that point, Ms. Ogborn had been accused of using drugs, as well as theft (the addition of another charge should also have been another cue that things weren’t as they seemed). Absolutely - along with a hundred other things that should have cued off a person who is not abnormally high in compliance to authority and obedience that something is off. > [@](#): > > If someone, preferably you, **Hentor** , since you’re the one conflating submitting to a strip search with ordering someone to give head, could please give me an explanation of how receiving a blow job can indicate the presence or absence of drugs in one’s system, I’d love to read it. Why the fuck would I do that? I don’t believe that to be true. I’M FUCKING ASKING WHY YOU CHANGE CAUSES IN MIDSTREAM. She goes along with everything else because she is naive, but suddenly, she gives head out of mortal fear. Why is it so unlikely that a common explanation exists for her behavior - she is at the far end of the distribution in obedience. Is it because you don’t want to believe that it exists? > [@](#): > > What purpose did Mr. Nix’s ordering Ms. Ogborn to give him a blow job serve? Is there _any_ way it could have logically been connected with the things she was accused of? In my opinion, she could have seen submitting to a strip search as a way to demonstrate her innocence. It couldn’t serve any such purpose. Stripping for the manager couldn’t serve any purpose either. Dancing around and being examined by co-workers could serve no purpose. Why pretend that some part of this is reasonable and others not. As soon as you bring the concept of “logical” into the picture, you’re sunk. It just isn’t logical that the police would conduct a strip search by proxy over the telephone - what would the value of any evidence be? What would the logical explanation be for depriving her of her rights or mirandizing her? NONE OF IT IS LOGICAL. Why is it so hard to regard her behavior consistently - she is a person who lacks the capacity to judge the appropriateness of commands and requests put to her. The caller is the criminal and is at fault for the situation. Her deficits and impairments just made her the perfect victim for this situation, and I hope to god that she finds some method for changing that in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Faust\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e56c9b/32.png) [@Faust\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faust_1)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/147 "2005-10-15T04:00:57Z")
**Hentor** , you are just assuming that the girl is lying, even though as far as I can tell nobody else who was involved has contradicted her story in the least. I think I’m going to believe the victim over someone on a message board who has no evidence, but claims that their “psychology” tells them that hitting, threatening, and forcing a teenage girl to give him oral sex is not that bad. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/148 "2005-10-15T06:12:08Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > The threat was different. Nix was threatening her physically; Summers was threatening her job. Remember, she’s responsible for supporting herself and dear ol’ mom. > > How many 17 year olds in this country are responsible for supporting their families? Can we at least agree that she was 18. > [@the first line of the article](#): > > She was a high school senior who had just turned 18 The article is confusing because it gives bits of info from other calls at other stores. also > [@](#): > > Ogborn said later in a deposition. She had taken the $6.35-an-hour position after her mother lost her job. This does not mean she was the sole income for the family. Perhaps her dad worked. Perhaps her mother had gotten a new job in the intervening 4 months and she just kept it. We don’t know. I never called her a bad person but looking over the article again I noticed that TWO managers were in the room. Donna Jean Summers was the one on the phone but Dockery, a 40-year old woman was in the room as well ‘observing’. Two on one is never a fair fight. (unless I’m the one because I’m such a badass) ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/149 "2005-10-15T09:35:35Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Jesus, people. You should never consent to a strip search by a manager at a fast food restaurant or anywhere else! It’s not fucking reasonable. It’s not reasonable to comply with commands to dance around, bend over and whatnot to see if anything shakes out. The cook knew it was not reasonable to examine the girl and describe her. The maintenance man knew that the entire circumstance was not reasonable. NONE OF IT IS FUCKING REASONABLE. DON’T BE FUCKING DUPED LIKE THIS - EVER! > > Why the fuck would I do that? I don’t believe that to be true. I’M FUCKING ASKING WHY YOU CHANGE CAUSES IN MIDSTREAM. She goes along with everything else because she is naive, but suddenly, she gives head out of mortal fear. Why is it so unlikely that a common explanation exists for her behavior - she is at the far end of the distribution in obedience. Is it because you don’t want to believe that it exists? **Hentor** , I am NOT changing courses in midstream. I have said all along that one reason she complied with the strip search is because she was afraid. That’s what **Zebra** asked about and why I wrote such a long post yesterday. I’m assuming she was afraid, not only of losing this job, but of not being able to get another because she’d been fired for theft and refusing to cooperate with authorities. Since her manager was accusing her of theft and, presumably, had told her the police were on the way, she was also afraid of going to jail. If you were in that situation – accused of a crime you didn’t commit which was a firable offense with the police on the way – wouldn’t you have been at least a little bit nervous? Be careful. If you say you wouldn’t because you’re certain you wouldn’t be fired and sent to jail, you’re falling prey to the same naivete you’re deriding in Ms. Ogborn. Let me tell you something about how the mind of a person who’s honest in the way Ms. Ogborn is. I’m basing this on her statement in the article, “I couldn’t steal – I’m too honest. I stole a pencil one time from a teacher and I gave it back.” A few years ago, while I was visiting a friend of mine, we stopped off at a Staples. Hand sanitizer had just come on the market and I picked up a small bottle. We left the store and went off to do other things. About an hour later, I was mortified when I reached in my pocket and found the bottle there. I’d apparently put it in my pocket and forgotten about it. She agreed when I said I needed to go back to the store and return it. She still kids me about how guilty I looked as I walked into the store to return it. We joke that it’s a wonder they didn’t hold me for shoplifting on the spot simply because of how clearly guilty I looked, and, frankly, I was worried I’d get busted for shoplifting. I wasn’t 18 when this happened; I was in my mid-30’s. It was only a 99 cent bottle of hand sanitizer, but not returning it was unthinkable. If I had shoplifted or, to put it bluntly, stolen, however inadvertantly, my concience would have raised hell with me. As for the dancing around, bending over, etc. again, that happened **over 2 hours** after the incident started, long after Ms. Ogborn’s manager had expected the police to arrive. That’s 2 hours of being naked, accused of a crime it’s unthinkable you’d commit, and humiliated. That’s 2 hours of being told you’re going to jail and lose your job. I’ve been subjected to 30 minute harangues from my father for stuff I didn’t do. Hell, my ex-boss would harangue me for over 20 minutes at a time for _his_ mistakes, which is why he’s now my ex-boss. Now, I’m not saying Ms. Ogborn was constantly harangued for 2 hours or 20 minutes, although it’s established she was naked and accused of a crime which could cost her her job. I will say that after 20 minutes of being harangued for something I know full well you didn’t do, even fully clothed and over 40, let alone fully clothed and in my teens, I reached a point where nothing I said was going to be believed and instead I would be accused of making excuses or lying. With my ex-boss, I did try to object longer at first; after a while, I realized it wasn’t going to work and all I could do was let him yell at me until he ran out of steam. I would assume that, even if you aren’t used to being harangued, there comes a point where you’ve tried everything you can think of and it hasn’t worked. If you’re more naturally compliant than I am, and I’m not naturally compliant in most situations, that point probably comes sooner. By the way, as far as my ex-boss is concerned, one reason he thinks he’s my ex-boss is because I wasn’t naturally compliant enough. It’s been a year since I had the pleasure of leaving him, and, at last report, he was on my second successor. If you don’t see the difference between a frightened 18 year old who’s been told the police is on the way, who’s been accused of a crime she didn’t commit and who stands to lose her job, and 41 year old man who has a job and a family who comes on the scene two hours later, long after the police should have arrived whose only stake in the matter is his engagement to the girl’s manager, so be it. To me, there’s a large one. At least two hours large. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/150 "2005-10-15T13:07:38Z")
> [@Faust.](#): > > **Hentor** , you are just assuming that the girl is lying, even though as far as I can tell nobody else who was involved has contradicted her story in the least. :dubious: Where did I ever say that she was lying? > [@](#): > > I think I’m going to believe the victim over someone on a message board who has no evidence, but claims that their “psychology” tells them that hitting, threatening, and forcing a teenage girl to give him oral sex is not that bad. Don’t put words into my mouth, shithead. This is the problem with ignorance. It is so pervasive that you encounter it even on a message board dedicated to fighting it. I suspect you’ll tell me that if I don’t like the war in Iraq, I must support the terrorists next. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713/151 "2005-10-15T13:29:06Z")
**Siege** , I’ve also not suggested that she was not fearful. In fact, I suggested way back that fear may have overwhelmed whatever ability to judge the appropriateness of commands given to her. However, my point is that the level of threat she was experiencing is not one that would or should overwhelm most people’s basic judgment, unless they suffer from particularly high levels of authoritarianism or obedience. The two are not mutually exclusive. And feeling nervous in circumstances like these is not the point - of course people will be aroused to respond when in a strange situation, especially if they’ve felt they may have done something wrong. The question is, what can people get you to do once you’re in that state. In your example, would you have agreed if the salesperson or manager did say “You’ve shoplifted. Come with me to the back room. Okay, now strip off your clothes so we can determine if you have anything else on you.” Sitting naked for two hours is part of the problem, not some extraneous variable. She sat there for two hours for the same reason that she complied with the order to strip in the back room. Losing a minimum wage McDonald’s job is something most people would recognize as a rather small threat. Thinking back to high school, I knew my Target job was a joe job. I would hope that most people’s responses would be like **Guinastasia’s**. Trying to normalize Ogborn’s reaction is sad and wrong - we should be looking to change it, not excuse it. Practice questioning authority, even in the simplest circumstances. Hang up on telemarketers. Exert control over sales people. Insist upon things you need from your doctor. Sometimes say no just to say no. Don’t be a victim yourself, and don’t suggest that women have no other option than to comply with commands. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fast-food-hoax-strip-searches/325713.md?page=7)