Fast Food Lawsuit

Here’s a few excerpts from my citations for those who haven’t looked at them.

According to a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study published in the prestigious Journal for the American Medical Association:

*"A growing obesity epidemic is threatening the health of millions of Americans in the United States…

According to the findings, the obesity epidemic spread rapidly during the 1990s across all states, regions, and demographic groups in the United States. Obesity (defined as being over 30% above ideal body weight) in the population increased from 12% in 1991 to 17.9% in 1998. The highest increase occurred among the youngest ages (18- to 29-year-olds), people with some college education, and people of Hispanic ethnicity. By region, the largest increases were seen in the South, with a 67% increase in the number of obese people. Georgia had the largest increase ? 101%. The findings also show that a major contributor to obesity ? physical inactivity ? has not changed substantially between 1991 and 1998."

According to this article in the the UK Independent (similar to the New York Times):

*"There is certainly no problem in eating well in the cosmopolitan big cities [in the United States], where the health kick has long since brought in its wake organic vegetables, farmers’ markets, sun-dried tomatoes from Italy and home-made bread. But once you head inland from the coasts, away from the big population centers and the college towns, you find not only that the fancy olive oils and foreign specialty foods have vanished; and so, too, have most of the fruits and vegetables and, with them, the very notion of unprocessed fresh food. It’s a straightforward question of availability, giving the lie to food industry claims that consumers can exercise free choice in deciding what to put in their mouths: in the heartland, the chains and big supermarkets have, by and large, taken over, and the few remaining family-owned businesses tend to survive through imitation rather than by providing any significant alternative. Thinness and healthy eating are increasingly becoming the preserve of the wealthy and the educated living in privileged urban cocoons.

Fast-food chains and soda vendors have penetrated college campuses and even state-run schools, where they have successfully offered sponsorship to cash-strapped school districts in exchange for the right to install their vending machines outside the classrooms. They have even invaded hospitals. While the cafeteria at the UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles, one of the premier research hospitals in the country, offers sushi made on the premises and a full salad bar, at the main hospital in Toledo, Ohio, in the heart of the Midwestern rust belt, the only catering is provided by McDonald’s."*

Here is an excerpt from the ABC News article on Fast Food Nation, a recent book that has called attention to the subject:
*
“People should know what they’re eating, and how it’s made; they should spend their money at places that make food well,” Schlosser [the author of the book] told Good Morning America. “Nobody is forcing people to eat this stuff, and fast food places will change when customers demand changes.”

Even if 2 percent to 3 percent of customers complained, it would make a big drop in sales, Schlossberg said. The fast food companies aren’t out to harm us. But what is good for them in the short run, is not good for us in the long run."*

From the same article we learn that:

" U.S. Surgeon General David Satcher issued a “call to action” in mid-December, saying some 300,000 deaths a year are related to obesity, and calling for the removal of fast-food from schools."

I think it’s clear that we have a problem here and the problem most clearly concerns the young, and the poor and/or uneducated.

Fenris, I don’t think McDonald’s or any other company is entitled to make profit marketing fatty foods and empty-calorie soft drinks to public school kids. Those kids are sitting ducks. If fast-food chains are not willing to modify their menus accordingly, I say (along with the US surgeon general) get them out of public schools. Why? Because my property taxes go to support those schools, and my taxes subsidize the health-related costs of obesity. Not least of all, my child attends those schools.

As to not teaching nutrition in schools, say what? Last time I looked nutrition was a part of science and of phys ed. How can you possibly argue otherwise? It’s one thing to say that you wouldn’t require fast-food chains to promote nutrition in order to serve meals in public schools; it’s another to argue that schools shouldn’t teach nutrition. Schools should and usually do.

Sua, I agree with you that this suit is a turkey but, for the same reason, I think it’s absurd to maintain that defending against it will result in a price rise on the Big Mac. It might have a minor impact on corporate profits in the short term but, unless it’s successful that’s about it. And I doubt very much that MacD’s will settle; that would be inviting more suits.

Now, my hypotheticals.

Leaner-line foods. This would be up to MacDonald’s et.al. to sell or not to sell. Fenris it’s quite possible that with rising awareness of obesity there will be more demand for a leaner product. Maybe McLean tasted like crap and a superior product wouldn’t. As to McVeggie, they are sold in Britain, fairly successfully, where there are more vegetarians (though I doubt very much that they’re particularly healthy because they’re as greasy as can be).

Promotional literature: McDonald’s is always giving out promotional stuff of all kinds. This would probably be good business for them. This kind of stuff doesn’t cost very much as it’s boilerplate. It’s not as though McDonald’s has to suddenly come up with its own research on a balanced diet. If McDonald’s found this wasn’t helping them or was breaking the bank, they’d be free to stop: I was suggesting this as a voluntary act–the way that McD’s voluntarily takes part in charitable enterprises–not as a state-mandated action.

Guinastasia, FWIW I probably go to McD’s more than you do. It’s the best place to take your kid to play when it’s raining or cold. Little Mandelstamo likes everything about the place: from the crappy little Disney tie-in toys, to the McNuggets, to the chocolate milk that I buy him to replace the soda. Mr. Mandelstam, whose metabolism oughta be for sale, likes the two-for-a-buck apple pies. Yours truly, who is on the svelte side, eats the McShaker salad–vegetarian as I don’t eat chicken (if you can call what McD’s puts in their salads “chicken”–which is, er, palatable.

Obviously any individual or family can visit McDonald’s, Wendy’s, the Colonel’s or wherever once a month or even twice a week without suddenly becoming obese. But there is a growing problem out there though it’s probably not one that, demographically speaking, is likely to hit the kind of relatively well-educated people who spend their leisure time on the Straight Dope.

Elitists! :wink:

Obesity is not going to go away as a trend. The McDonald’s suit, IMO, will go nowhere but public awareness will hopefully grow by other means and hopefully communities will get fast food joints out of their public schools. Otherwise we, as a nation, will pay the price.

Recognizing that a problem exists and taking reasonable measures to combat it, as a society, is just common sense. Not everybody has the same advantages when they are growing up. Nanny-state my (slim, well-educated, and relatively prosperous) ass.

Not true. Most people eat only 3 times a day(two more many). 520 calories is not 1/3 of 2000 calories most people think they need. (not to mention most people need more than 2k) 30% of a person’s calories should be Fat. 29 grams not even half the fat a person eating 2000 calories needs, but with the low fat diets most people eat when they are not splurging on fast food, It is probable they won’t even get the other 37 grams of fat the rest of the day. (2000 X .30= 600 calories of Fat, 9 calories per gram of fat= ~66g)

If ANYTHING is bad it is the empty carbs of the bread, the nearly pure sugar of the ketchup, and the fact that most of the meats fast foods use is processed and contain Trans fatty acids.
Fat is not the culprit the masses think it is. That is the media using outdated ideas (high carb, low fat diets). Carbs are turned into fat quicker than dietary fats are, and cause many more medical problems.

The fries are bad for a person, that is almost a given. But you didn’t mention them did you? Does that have to do with the fact that they aren’t meat, thus not worth mentioning?

I should add that I’m not sure what the Independent has in mind when they say “heartland.” Regionally, it’s really Southeast central (e.g. Kentucky) and Southwest central (e.g., Arkansas) that are topping the charts. I’m not sure that’s really “heartland.”

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/trend/prev_reg.htm

Actually, here’s something else that occurred to me - this is all assuming he’s only been to one location of each of those four fast-food joints. If he’s such a fast-food junkie, my bet is that he’s not going to just one McDonald’s - he’s going to 20 or 30 all over town.

A) Nice bait-and-switch: YOU said “promote”. I specifically said that “teaching” nutrition is OK while “promoting” (aka propaganzing) wasn’t. So you can’t tar me with that brush. Wanna go back, reread my post and try again?

B) Since I don’t think the schools have any real business serving food anyway, I don’t much care if they yank ALL the food services out.

C) Ever hear of “The Law of Unintended Consequences”? You can’t force them to eat tofu and seaweed burgers. If you take fast food joints out of high schools, you’ll simply have:
[list]
[li]kids bringing unholistic foods and drinks to school, [/li]
[li]kids skipping lunch all together, [/li]
[li]having a small black market (my idiot Middle-School had the bright idea that the soda machines would be removed because they were unhealthy. A couple of pals and I kept bringing six and twelve packs of Coke and Sprite to school, stashing 'em in our lockers and selling 'em for about 75c/can (and this was in the late '70s!)…kids were giving us their lunch money for soda. We made a VERY tidy little profit (I think I ended up with about $30 bucks profit) before we got caught. And they they decided they had to put the machines back in or ban soda all together, and they didn’t think they could get away with that.)[/li]
[li] Kids leaving the schoolgrounds to get something they want to eat. Frankly, I’d rather my hypothetical kid eat a fatty burger at lunch than chance a car wreck, but hey, that’s just me.[/li]
But y’know what’ll solve this problem? Vouchers. You can have your kid go to a school where 4 hours of each day will be spent “promoting” a “healthy” diet. In the same amount of time, my kid’ll be learing math and science. Eventually, in a fit of irony, your kid, with his vast knowledge of holistic foods will be working in a burger joint and will someday ask MY kid, the greedy corporate exec. “You want fries with that, mister?” ← Kidding! :wink:

Fenris

If a kind mod could add a “[/list]” in the appropriate place in that post, I’ll promise not to force them to eat a tofu and seaweed burger! :smiley:

Fenris

Ok perhaps this is a Hijack but who cares it is not as if you are going to sue me… right?

Fenris says that the cost of litigation will make Mcdonalds increase the cost of their products. I have a question:

If Mcdonalds goes to trials and win wouldn’t the plaintiffs be obligued to pay all the cost of the process?

** Fenris **:
No bait-and-switch at all. Why? Because there is no distinction between teaching nutrition and promoting nutrition; for the simple reason that there is no serious debate about what constitutes good nutrition. To teach the basic facts is to promote good nutrition. Hence, it’s absurd to argue that “promoting” good nutrition at school is “propaganda”; any more than promoting exercise in phys ed class is propaganda; or promoting the benefits of reading in English class is propaganda. Sorry Fenris, there just is no debate here.

"Since I don’t think the schools have any real business serving food anyway, I don’t much care if they yank ALL the food services out. "

Well I suspect that most parents would disagree with you. (Let me guess, you don’t have any kids yet, right?) Most parents recognize that a hot lunch for their kids, esp. in the winter, is a lot nicer than something in a brown bag. And most parents also appreciate the convenience. For that reason, most schools already have the facilities.

Bear in mind: there’s no dearth of alternatives to serving fast food in public schools. The only reason that this trend is increasing is that there are pay-offs involved for strapped public school systems.

“Ever hear of “The Law of Unintended Consequences”? You can’t force them to eat tofu and seaweed burgers. If you take fast food joints out of high schools, you’ll simply have…”

Er, talk about bait and switch ;). As it happens my kid’s public school has no fast food on the premises (most parents in my neighborhood would have a cow if they did).

Typical meals include pizza, tacos, soup with sandwich, hot dogs, pasta. These are all overseen by a nutritionist so that a serving of vegetables is included. We’re not talking vegan meals here; just ordinary food that isn’t ultra high in either fat or carbs.

“A couple of pals and I kept bringing six and twelve packs of Coke and Sprite to school, stashing 'em in our lockers and selling 'em for about 75c/can (and this was in the late '70s!)…kids were giving us their lunch money for soda. We made a VERY tidy little profit (I think I ended up with about $30 bucks profit) before we got caught. And they they decided they had to put the machines back in or ban soda all together, and they didn’t think they could get away with that.)”

Well this is a very amusing tale and I hope you didn’t put your profits into Enron ;).

Yeah, some kids might want to buy soda from another kid, or bring in soda from home for that matter. The idea isn’t to prevent kids who drink soda from drinking soda (I let my kid drink soda at a restaurant whenever he asks for it). Just as the idea isn’t to prevent them from consuming any fast food. The idea is simply to make sure that there is an option in public schools.

I also suspect that we’re talking about a different age child. Kids aren’t allowed to leave the premises during lunch-time until junior high–at least not where I live. So there’s no danger of car wrecks. And this is all based on the ludicrous premise that a kid will do anything to get his/her hands on a Big Mac and fries vs. eating a bowl of soup and a sandwich. Sorry, but I don’t think so.

“You can have your kid go to a school where 4 hours of each day will be spent “promoting” a “healthy” diet. In the same amount of time, my kid’ll be learing math and science.”"

I think that both of our kids deserve to learn math, science and
nutrition in a school where the meals are prepared by a nutritionist. Then you and I can take our kids out for fast food whenever we want to.

“Eventually, in a fit of irony, your kid, with his vast knowledge of holistic foods will be working in a burger joint and will someday ask MY kid, the greedy corporate exec. “You want fries with that, mister?” <- Kidding! ;)”

Hey, at least my kid will fit through the door of the bank :wink:

And what’s “holistic” food?

Guin, I missed yours before my post. You won’t get much argument from me about the merits of the suit; and I think you’re right that some people’s idea of heaven is unlimited calories. (Personally, I’d skip Taco Bell and do that Godiva rasberry ice cream thang.)

I would say, though, that that I’d really like to see McDonald’s add some McHealth to their menu. I’d like it, for example, if they offered a side salad instead of fries with some of their meals. I’d like it if they offered whole wheat buns. I’d also like it if their coffee didn’t suck ;). Seriously though, Subway seems to do alright with these options and maybe McD’s might as well. I know I’d appreciate these things b/c, as aforementioned, I spend alot of time at McDonald’s. However, I certainly do not expect McD’s to serve these items if they’re going to lose money. I do believe, however, that it’s possible that McD et.al. might just find that they’d do alright with one or more options–say a nice turkey burger with whole wheat and a good salad.

And I do think McD’s and their ilk should get out of schools unless they’re willing to come up with a special menu.

I agree with fast foods in school-of course, cafeteria food wasn’t much healthier. Undercooked french fries and burnt pizza…yuck.

Please tell me you were kidding and didn’t just do the “Debate over. Nothing more to say. I win” stunt. I know you better than that.

'Cause somehow I’m about to continue the debate. Either there is a debate or I’m trolling. And I’m not trolling.

Riddle me this: how many parents would see a distinction between “teaching” proper use of condoms and “promoting” proper use of condoms?

Or how 'bout “teaching” about tobacco use vs “promoting” tobacco use? Still see no difference?

Or how 'bout “teaching” religion and “promoting” religion?

Sorry, the two terms are worlds apart, and just because you happen to think that nutrition is a nifty cause doesn’t change the fact that if you’re “promoting” something, you’re still cramming your value system down someone’s else’s throat.

“But wait!” I hear you cry “The vast majority of people believe in good nutrition and there’s not a whole lotta debate about what good nutrition is!”

Please allow me to point you back to page 2 where our old buddy whatshisname ( dalmuti?) was griping about the food-pyramid which was controlled by the beef council who were probably members of the Illuminati and were trying to pollute our precious bodily fluids in an attempt to soften us up for the orbital mind-control lasers, or whatever he was saying. I don’t want someone like him “promoting” his ideas of good nutrition to my kids. I don’t want a Vegan “promoting” Vegan ideas of nutrition and I imagine they wouldn’t want me to “promote” mine. I imagine a vegan wouldn’t be too thrilled with me (“The three basic food groups are “rare”, “medium-rare” and “medium”. It stops being food after that.”) Neither would a Hindu.

I have no problem with saying “Here’s what a Vegan believes about nutrition.” I have a HUGE problem with saying “Vegans eat a healthier diet than everyone else and unless you eat it too, you’re going to be fat, miserable and unhappy and probably die in a gutter somewhere.”. THAT’S the difference between “teaching” and “promoting”.
**

I’ll answer, but it’s irrelevant. (And let me say that the “You don’t have kids, so you can’t have an opinion” thing is a BS tactic)

Nope, no kids.

But since I’m paying school taxes, I get a vote. And were it up to me, I’d say that kids could bring TV Dinners to microwave, soup in thermoses, etc. if the parents want a hot lunch for their teens. I’d rather the parents take responsiblity and save the school the money spent on staffing, maintaing and subsidizing that lunchroom, and spend it on things like smaller classes. (Nope, still no cite, but I bet that without some sort of subsidizing there’s no way that a school lunch could be had for…what is it now, $1.50?) go to things like smaller classes. Lose three cafeteria workers, 2 cafeteria montiors, probabl 2 hours of cleanup out of the custodian’s day and add in the amount that the school subsidizes the cost of meals and you’ll end up with a tidy sum.

(I’m talking Middle School and High School. I see chaos if we have elementary school kids trying to nuke meals in a timely fashion).

Yes, folks, Fenris just spoke out againt hot lunches at school for the kiddies. Next up, watch him lobby against discounted bus passes for widows of World War Two veterans in his bid to gain support for his cause! :wink:

**

What grade is your kid in? If it’s elementary, he’s stuck, but by high-school, he and/or his classmates will be ducking out and getting a burger or pizza.

**

Bwah-ha-ha! Touche!! :smiley:
**

I dunno, but Boulder (aka “Berkley East”’) used to promote it as a sign that their school district was more enlightened than everyone else. (They also had “community trash pick-up days” where kids would learn garbage handling skills. :rolleyes: ). In any case, I’d be afraid to eat it.

Fenris

PS: To any V(v?)egan, or any person more literate than me out there: is V(v?)egan capitalized or not. I feel like such a doof every time I type it 'cause I’m probably doing it wrong.

They do. It’s the McShaker salad. I see them in the little fridge behind the counter there. But I don’t see a lot people ordering it. Maybe I’m just not there at the right time.

It’s true that we are getting fatter, here in the US. I can’t go week without seeing a ‘news’ story about it. What’s not true is that it’s McDonalds fault. (Or KFC, BK, or Wendy’s) See, they only give us what we want. That’s why we go there. Really, if we were after healthy fare, we’d go somewhere’s else.

They shouldn’t be punished for doing that which we expect them to do.

I like salads, and I’ve had a McShaker.

They McSuck.

These McJokes are getting McSilly.

Actually, I went to an elementary school that had a student microwave in the lunchroom. Those little microwave-ready cups of ravioli were great.

Will somebody please answer my question?

Fenris, no time to argue semantics with you. If you think I thought that public school kids in the US should be taught to eat seagrass or be vegans you were mistaken. I meant simple basic facts about nutrition. I missed dalmuti on the pyramid–I guess there is some debate on how many servings of meat/protein are best, but it’s not what I meant. I just think kids should learn, for ex., that it’s important to eat fruits and vegetables, not only because of obesity issues, but also because a diet with none of the latter, that’s heavy in processed, fatty foods is also a bad risk for cancer, heart disease, and just plain unhealthy.

I hope we agree that an American school kid should learn that, and I suspect that most do at some point. Perhaps they should learn earlier or better–but not while McD’s is hawking bacon cheeseburgers to them down in the cafeteria.

My kid is in third grade, btw, blissfully trapped behind brick walls, eating up that cafeteria lunch as if he were at Spago. If his cafeteria gets closed down thanks to an anti-hot lunch campaign launched by Fenris, we’ll know exactly who the Grinch is and where to find him ;).

If we still live where we do now when he’s older then there won’t be any McD’s for him at lunch–unless he drives to school or another kid drives him–for the simple reason that there isn’t any close enough to either the middle or high school. Both are in residential areas.

But, believe me, I know my kid has to learn to make decisions for himself very soon–in fact he already makes a lot of decisions for himself now. Which is why I freely let my kid eat all kinds of things–soda pop, McNuggets, etc.–that I don’t choose to eat for myself. I know a thing or two about manipulation. :wink:
So I really don’t think there is much debate between us, and I don’t give a flying Fishwich who “wins” a debate.

spooje, back on the top of this page, I think, you’ll hear me describe the delights of the McShaker salad which, during the winter, when my kid wants to hit the McD’s indoor playground, I’m eating on a regular basis.

The McShaker isn’t offered as a sidedish instead of fries–and it’s not that cheap either (just over $2 with tax IIRC). The McShaker is fine and–if you’re a rabbit–it’s probably awesome. I’m not sure who dreamed up the idea of putting a salad in a tall cup, which basically means that if you want to disperse the tiny bits of cheese and egg throughout your iceberg lettuce you’ve either got to bring your own bowl or your out-of-luck.

In any case my point in entering this debate wasn’t to dis McDonald’s or any other fast food outlet, whatever their limitations may be. It was simply to point out that the fast food suit hasn’t been won, and isn’t likely to be won. And unless it is won, it isn’t likely to raise the cost of anyone’s fries, much less to evaporate notions of individual responsibility.

I don’t think that our society discounts the importance of the latter and, in many respects, I think our culture remains Puritan to its core, with people judged (harshly or not) according to their worldly achievements. Like many other problems obesity is something that disproportionately affects poorer kids and now, largely due to changes in eating habits including fast-food eating in certain demographics, a greater percentage of younger people is overeating to the point of obesity.

As we all know, being young and obese doesn’t just take a physical toll, it also takes a mental toll. Kids and even adults can be rather unkind to one another on the subject of obesity. This being Great Debates I felt that people could criticize the merits of the suit while remembering that the problem of a doubling of obesity levels over the last decade is just that–a problem–and one that we can recognize as members of community and a nation as well as individuals.

Okay, off to hit that drive-thru for my next Beanie TM and fast food fix. :wink:

No, they would not.

What’s there to promote about good nutrition? Nutrition is data-based fact. There’s nothing to dispute. Teaching good nutrition, would simply be teaching facts (what’s healthy, and what’s not) and letting the learners marke their own decisions. Granted, as with teaching anything, there has to be some sort of pragmatic “base” or “perspective” from which the teachers teach. But that’s easy. There’s a lot of information on nutrition, as countless studies. Needless to say, most of these studies concluse that a mostly-plant based diet, with a light sprinkling of meat and fish (not whatyou’re going to find in a fast food joint, or a public school) is the most condusive to good health. Facts.

Second, I’m also paying taxes. And way too much of my tax money gets spent for health care for people who take aweful care of their bodies. Think about the billions of dollars going for treatment of easily avoidable, and easily reversable heart and lung disease. Heart disease (I think) is the no. 1 killer in the US. One of the biggest causes of heart disease is clogged arteries. The biggest leading cause of clogged arteries is high cholesterol levels. The biggest reason that people have high cholesterol is because they don’t eat correctly, and don’t exercise. Why don’t they eat correctly? Because nutrition is nighter taught nor promoted seriously. If we spent more money on nutritional education, then less would be spent later on, in health care.

In the US, we’ve come to just accept heart disease as “a part of life,” which it most certainly is not. But, for the typical American, with the typical American diet, especially men, one has no choice but to expect heart problems.

Lastly, no, capitalization is not necessary for “vegan”, unless of course there has been some sort of recent development in which omnivores are now wishing to be called “Omnivores.”

Best,

TGD

Fenris-I’m afraid I have to disagree with school lunches-the sad thing is, for some kids, this is their main source of nutrition.

I personally would like to see less money going to competitive sports and fancy equipment and to better nutrition and HEALTHY physical ed classes-meaning teaching how to exercise and stay fit, rather than how to toss a ball over a net.

But I digress.