Doesn’t diving into first base and touching it with your hand effectively result in having to travel a longer distance? If I run through the base and touch it with my foot, I only have to travel the distance of the base path. However, if I dive into first base, I must travel the distance of the base path plus an additional distance in order to bring my hand down to the base. Since I more-or-less have to bring my head down to ground level, this could easily result in having to travel an extra half meter or so.
Another thought as to why people don’t tend to slide into first… I would think that running you’re less likely to hurt yourself, since you don’t even have to slow down getting across the base. In contrast, it seems like there’s at least some possibility of doing something minot like jamming a finger or something like that when sliding (didn’t someone do something like that recently?). So maybe running is safer? I would think that the difference in time between running and sliding is pretty small, though.
While decelerate may be an English word, it’s not used in science. Negative acceleration is the term that supposed to be used. Or, at least, that’s what my physics teachers have been telling me.
The question of which is faster is certainly a tough one to sort out. I think partly it depends on the runner. Getting a tall guy like Randy Johnson down would take a lot longer than a Roberto Alomar.
My gut tells me diving saves that fraction of a second. As has been pointed out in many other posts, that fractional second saved is not likely to be worth it. After all, it is still an opinion call and the umpire is not likely to see the 0.01s difference. This, of course, assumes someone well practiced in diving into first.
I’m convinced at this point that diving (“sliding”) has considerable advantages, even above and beyond the mechanics of whether a base can be touched a second earlier. Another advantage to sliding is more or less a martial arts one: the confusion caused by a flying body and sprays of dirt causes the slider no problem, but must confuse everyone else, to a small degree.
Rysto: English wins, physics loses.
Every discipline has “prissy” authorities, who’d like to recast the language in the image of their own field, pointing out there’s a specialized meaning (about which, of course, they’re expert) to certain words that EVERYONE should be aware of.
The idea of deceleration comes from the normal perception people have that “not moving” means you aren’t going to hit anything, and that deceleration is the way to be “not moving”. Getting cute, and pointing out that a comet or a distant star is actually still moving even if you think you’re stopped, misses the point. The point that the observation is useless to 99% of the people 99% of the time.
I have always felt that running is likelier to be faster than sliding head first (and is certainly faster than sliding feet first), although the fact that your feet are maybe 8 feet from the bag when your finger makes contact is something that had not occurred to me. As far as I have read this thread it is still a matter of pure speculation, unadulterated by so much as a morsel of fact.
Running is safer, easier and also puts you in a better position to advance on an error and those reasons are enough to explain why sliding is rare. Except when an errant throw causes the first baseman to try to tag the batter.
Pox on over-pedantic physics teachers. “Deceleration” is an English word in good standing and if it is a synonym for negative acceleration with respect to a certain inertial frame, so what? I recall one HS teacher, in physics as a matter of fact, who object to the word “difficult” as a synonym for “hard”. Go figure. Maybe it is an occupational hazard of HS physics teachers.
the difference is of course that one’s chest must cross the line when running the 100m, so sliding is out
My assessment after reading this thread and thinking about it is that a perfectly executed headfirst slide could save a fraction of a second.
If we think of the center of mass of the batter-runner, it is probably about 2.5 to 3 feet short of the bag when the foot makes contact.
If he/she can transition to horizontal without slowing, the center of mass will be 4 to 5 feet short of the bag when the hand makes contact.
However, I think the chances of executing a perfect dive without decelerating (errr… decreasing the magnitude of the kinetic energy of the moving body with respect to the inertial reference frame) are too small to make it a good strategy.
keeper0:"…However, I think the chances of executing a perfect dive without decelerating…"
Remember Newton, an object in motion remains in motion in the absence of any other forces. If I am at full sprint and I suddenly lift my feet from the ground, I don’t decelerate (excepting negligable air resistance), I continue at the same speed I was at when my feet were in contact with the ground.
Brad_d’s soccer analogy is absolutely correct (speaking as a soccer player myself). You can get to a tackle faster by sliding. A keeper can get to a ball sooner by diving with arms stretched.
To put it in physics perspective…while running vertically, your body is perpendicular to the ground and all of your mass is more or less vertically positioned along your center of gravity. Now, when you dive or slide, your center of mass remains traveling at the same velocity and position. Your body rotates about the center of mass until it is parallel to the ground. As this happens, the forward half of your body accelerates in relation to your center of mass, while the back half decelerates. Outstretched, your arms (or feet depending if it’s a dive or slide) will now reach your target point ahead of your center of mass. Remember, if properly executed, your center of mass did not decelerate during your slide.
It gets better.
Mechanically, you can still be pumping your legs against the ground while diving forward, potentially making you momentarily even faster than you would be at a full sprint, being that you no longer are having to worry about pesky things like balance and remaining upright which tend to slow you down while running. So a baseball player making a pistoning dive at the base can very significantly shave off those critical fractions of seconds.
As others noted, the only reason track runner don’t do it is because of the road rash that would be the inevitable bloody result.
Diving/sliding good!
agree to above post. track runners do do a similar thing where they lean their torsos forward to try and break the finish plane first, though. sometimes they fall(accidentally) too, completing the “slide”… heh.
all the track world needs is the first sprinter to actually use the technique to win and then it’ll be de rigueur for all races to end in a bloody pile of bodies.
The baserunner must touch the base, not just break the plane of the base, as Marv Thronberry can tell you. Since a runner’s foot is already lined up with the base (at least in the major leagues, a little leaguer wouldn’t have spent hundreds of hours running to first base to get the steps right), the runner must bring his hand from about four feet in the air down to about three inches (assuming a headfirst slide). To do this, he would have to rotate his body, which would slow him down, and stop using his feet to push against the ground.
The reason track runners don’t dive through the tape is because a runner who is still running is faster than a runner who is sailing through the air.
It is faster to run through the base. Let’s compair…lets say you slide or dive to the base, you have to start sliding to the base about lets say 7 to 5 feet before the base and in the 7 to 5 feet you are slowing down the whole time. But if you run through first base that 7 to 5 feet you are still running your fastest and your feet are still pushing you, your whole body is not slowing you down. That’s why it’s faster to run through the base. It may only be about a second faster but that second may count in a close game.
I think the key here is that the slowing down will happen only with the contact with the dirt. The rotation mentioned by the soccer players could be helpful if you stay in the air. So instead of sliding to a stop (which obviously slows you down) you dive towards the base with your hands outstretched so that the first surface you touch is the base. Thus the only force slowing you down is air resistance since gravity pulls you down not towards home base. As to what happens to your body afterwards, I’ll let someone else figure that out :eek:
In actual practice I wouldn’t be surprised if most baseball players reached the base slower than running. I think you would have to have it down to quite an art to avoid breaking the pace a full speed run. I think most players in the anticipation of their dives probably would take a step that slows their velocities and gives a chance to break their falls and keep their face from hitting the dirt.
As far as olympic runners, I’m sure they would break the tape with their hands if they were allowed and shave a few milliseconds off of the world records.
It’s faster to jump through the air, although really not much.
I’m 6 feet tall. The point the decision is made to run or jump for me is about 12 feet. It’s not falling, it’s jumping. My center of gravity (which measures how much energy overall I have to exert) is about 4 feet short of the base when I touch it. So it’s comparing a “falling jump” (a forward slide, mostly through the air) of 8 feet vs. running 12 feet. For me, the slide wins.
That a jump is a split second faster than running may not occur to people who play baseball or football, but, as we’ve noted, the soccer players are more familiar with loosing their feet to get a split second advantage know that jumping’s faster. As a sometime sabre fencer, also, I note that the move you are nearly sure you can get someone, but they’re standing too far back is called a fleche: You give up all hope of a later attack by making one, huge jump with your sword arm outstretched. One of the sites I looked at wanted to distinguish between a “running fleche”, which apparently gives the attacker too much advantage, and the fleche from a standing position.
You are absolutely right. The slowing down happens from the contact with the dirt, but also from the lost of leg power. Check out the video at this link:
Towards the end of the video they superimpose the diving runner vs the nondiving runner. Intially, the diving runner has quite an advantage, but he loses it from the friction of the slide combined with the cessation of leg velocity.
But if perfectly timed and executed, the dive is faster. The problem is twofold: (1) less than perfection and you lose, rather than gain an advantage. (2) The chances of injuring a wrist of finger touching the bag isn’t worth the few milliseconds gained from a perfectly timed and executed dive.
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If anyone wants to start a new conversation on this topic, please do so in the appropriate forum (most likely the Game Room as it concerns sports).
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Would he get mad if you said “turn left”? Many things can be an acceleration. There is nothing wrong with being more specific.