# Fat hate speech? The role of the bystander. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160 "2010-07-01T04:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/201 "2010-07-12T19:32:31Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Is your sister overweight? Not at all. She has an athletic physique, strong, well-defined, yet still feminine. She was always very active. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/202 "2010-07-12T19:55:31Z")
I think that it is up to the bystander and the context of the whole exchange. Fat hate speech is nothing compared to the hate speech about stupidity. Remember, the stupid can’t help being stupid and sometimes none of them are even smart enough to learn to pretend to agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/203 "2010-07-12T20:54:18Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > What’s more, it’s considered fairly acceptable to ridicule women (especially the Hollywood starlet types) for being “too skinny.” Level the same kind of ridicule toward women with a few pounds to lose though, and there will be hell to pay. Please show me examples on these boards of women, _other than Hollywood starlet types_, being ridiculed for being “too skinny”. Leave off the fact that the “Hollywood starlets” mentioned are in the business of selling their body image and that in general more of them endure comments about their having put a few on than their being too thin (no cite, sorry), is the simple fact that said starlets are generally being held up as representing an ideal body type for young women in our society to aspire to. I believe it is fair game to dispute whether or not the body type being held up that way is one that should be so aspiritional. Let’s take a few and explore using [this source](http://www.docshop.com/2009/01/20/height-and-weight-of-americas-top-female-celebrities-how-do-you-compare-to-your-favorite-hollywood-starlets/) for height weight data. Nicole Kidman’s BMI calculates to 17.2. According to [this site](http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/tdjan2008pg56.shtml) a BMI of under 20 is “underweight” and under 18.5 to 17.5 is “extremely underweight.” They don’t even tell us what below 17.5 gets labelled. Fewer than 9% of this country has a BMI under 20. The [CDC](http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/underweight/underweight_adults.pdf&sa=X&ei=6nM7TI-NGIPvnQf9yrTWAg&ved=0CBUQzgQoADAA&usg=AFQjCNGzMKTbFnuTfBOQsniunpMleKsbSw) uses a different definition and labels only those under 18.5 as underweight. By that definition under 2% are underweight. “Underweight” by the CDC definition is associated with [worse health outcomes, in particular a greater relative risk of death](http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/293/15/1861) than is “overweight” or even “obese” up to a BMI of 35. Jessica Alba’s BMI comes to 18.5 - just on the edge of the CDC’s definition. Kate Moss’s BMI calculates to 16.5. Naomi Campbell to 15.8. Calista Flockhart to 15.7. In so far as that these women, outliers for low BMI in our society, are being held as physical forms to emulate, as ideals, pointing out that they are thin, very thin, even to a point that is clinically labelled as significantly underweight and at risk for adverse health outcomes because of their thinness, is fair. And it is not negative speech against the thin as a class, or assuming negative character flaws on the basis of an individuals’ being thin - which is what happens to the fat. The “negative speech” directed against these celebrities in this context are - oh my, “prepubertal thighs”, “skinny as a rail”, “should be given a sammich”, maybe worrying if they have a medical condition (including an eating disorder) - funny enough, not anything about their character, not being called lazy, or worse. Oh I am sure that the very thin have been made fun of too. There are assholes who will find whatever is someone’s sensitive spot and poke it with a stick, and in-laws who feel that they can and should say anything that pops into their heads about anything no matter how ignorant the thought and inappropriate the comment. And some who are jealous of someone achieving that which our society seems to idealize, and who therefore try to be as hateful as they can be. Still I have personally not seen many bash the skinny person or more so skinny people as a group threads on these boards. Any, in fact (although I am sure I could have missed something.) In fact, quickly say the first ten words that you associate with “skinny”. Write them down. Do the same with “fat”. How many on each list are positive and how many are negative? “Skinny” gets maybe one or two negative in that game - some people will say “skinny bitch”, maybe a “98 pound weakling” - the rest positive images or neutral. “Fat” gets one positive, sort of, “jolly”, and the rest almost all strongly negative. In fact is there even an insult for “too thin” comparable to “fatty” for the obese? There must be, but the fact that I can’t think of one let’s me know something. To be sure, if there was negative speech being directed the thin as a class, claiming that in general thin people are [some negative personality characteristic], or telling a thin person that they just are inferior in some personality characteristic, because if they aree thin they must be, (not questioning whether of not an outlier thin celebrity represents or does not represent an ideal to emulate) then I would join in in saying that such bullying was uncalled for. The issue is after all the role of the bystander in cases of bullying and negative speech - “fatty” was just the trigger and the specific example. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/204 "2010-07-12T21:46:34Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I think that it is up to the bystander and the context of the whole exchange. > > Fat hate speech is nothing compared to the hate speech about stupidity. Remember, the stupid can’t help being stupid and sometimes none of them are even smart enough to learn to pretend to agree with me. I’d love to see some examples of this. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/205 "2010-07-12T21:58:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Nicole Kidman’s BMI calculates to 17.2.Jessica Alba’s BMI comes to 18.5 - just on the edge of the CDC’s definition. Kate Moss’s BMI calculates to 16.5. Naomi Campbell to 15.8. Calista Flockhart to 15.7. Are you honestly believing their weights as published online? Really? Do you also believe Beyonce’s people that she has a 19" waist and that Jessica Simpson went from a size 2 to a size 4 even though it looks like she gained 50 pounds? Wait, are you also going to believe Kirstey Alley that at her HEAVIEST she as maybe 202 pounds before she lost weight? I had no idea you were a believer of fairy tales! Things are starting to make more sense now. > [@DSeid](#): > > The “negative speech” directed against these celebrities in this context are - oh my, “prepubertal thighs”, “skinny as a rail”, “should be given a sammich”, maybe worrying if they have a medical condition (including an eating disorder) - funny enough, not anything about their character, not being called lazy, or worse. Talk about selective reading. Does vain or shallow sound familiar to you? Do you honestly want to sit there and say you can’t imagine how someone who worked on their weight would be considered vain or shallow and that these aren’t things against their character? Why is it that you can’t even CONSIDER that these things are hurtful? How about if we ALL agree to you that fat hate is so, so much terrible than hate on anyone else? Would you THEN be able to see anyone else’s point as long as you got to be the MOST RIGHT? Because out there, somewhere a fat person is being called fattie you seem completely incapable of recognizing that LOTS of people are condemned for a variety of reasons and that fat people are not unique when it comes to this. Anyone that wants to pretend that ignorance/stupidity isn’t made fun of on this board or that women who are concerned with their appearance aren’t judged as shallow is either a liar or being deliberately obtuse so they can convince themselves (because they sure aren’t convincing anyone else) that they are right. LOTS of people get made fun of. Fat people don’t have a monopoly on that. A woman I work with has been called scarface for a (not even big!) scar on her face from a car accident. How relieved she’ll feel when I tell her that society hates fat people more and because she’s thin with her scarface she can feel better about knowing that SOCIETY makes her more acceptable. I’m sure that’ll help. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/206 "2010-07-12T23:44:54Z")
Oh of course, **Sleeps**. Getting cites for claims is just “going DSeid” … you don’t “play games” like actually supporting statements. Whatever. In any case, the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/28/fashion/28Fitness.html?_r=1) also quotes similar numbers: Kate Moss by their report has a BMI of 16.4, a tenth of a point below what the above source’s figures calculated out to be. But there I go with my “cites” and my “science” again. You have no need for things like “facts” - you know the truth, and woe to any who dares to question it. And another “published online” source for you to disbelieve, this from [Australia](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/24/2551627.htm), of an Australian Miss Universe finalist with a BMI of 15.1. Now honestly she is very pretty and I have no knowledge about her health status. And has a build consistent with the very pretty Kate Moss, Naomi Cambell, and so on. Attractive people. The issue raised by those who directed the “negative speech” about her in that article (calling her “bony”, for example) is as raised by the president of the Australian Medical Association: > [@](#): > > “The most unhealthy part about it, though, is the image it is showing other young women who may view this as normal, when clearly it’s not,” Dr Capolingua said. Although I differ with that doctor some: the problem is not presenting it as “normal” but presenting it as that which defines beauty. Agree or disagree with the step of [banning models](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/13/spain.models/index.html) with BMI’s of under 18, the fact is that 30% of the models that had been in the Madrid fashion show the year before the ban were that thin. These women may be beautiful but as that article notes, they are the benchmark by which young women then judge themselves. As to the rest of your inchoate rant … you have a consistent pattern of putting up posts that have little to do with what others have actually said and that show a huge amount of anger that you are willing to spew out at anyone who happens to not accept your revealed truths. Like **Stoid** I won’t bother to respond to things you have imagined I have said. If you want to Pit me then _please go ahead and do so_. Go ahead and, in that forum, rant away about how you believe I am irrational, post as if I am drunk, about how my providing cites and asking you to support your claims similarly is just “a game” that you “won’t play”, and that I am interested only in being “the MOST RIGHT” … imply that I am a liar there. Just let me know when you do as I only occasionally frequent the Pit. But please keep your personal attacks on those who disagree with you out of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/207 "2010-07-12T23:45:35Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I’d love to see some examples of this. Hmmm, where could we find those? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/208 "2010-07-13T00:09:09Z")
**Dseid** , you’re not worth a pitting. Really, you’re not. All anyone has to do is look at your previous posts in numerous threads on this topic to see how this is clearly a topic you cannot be unbiased about. Not at all. Fat people get bashed are lazy. People who are transgendered get bashed for a variety of reasons. Religious people get bashed for being naive, stupid, and delusional. People who like makeup, fashion and cosmetics are superficial and shallow. People who drive SUVs are selfish and egotistical and practically evil. Hell there was a thread recently where people who wanted their teeth whitened were called out for being assholes and not having “real” problems. Let’s not forget that only “real women” have curves. The recent thread where men were made fun of and called pretentious for shaving their heads to “hide” their oncoming baldness was pretty sad. People with tattoos are rebellious and dirty. Shaving your pubes? Well, you’re trying to attract pedophiles or look like a little boy/girl. Breast implants? Why, of course she’s stupid and shallow unless it’s for reconstruction. A recent thread about the fashion industry had people railing about how useless it is and vain people are for caring about it. This board (and the real world) is FULL of people who are judged each and every single day. You only seem to be concerned about the fat ones. You seem to indicate that is THEY who are getting value judgements. Guess what, everyone gets it. Thin people bash fat people by calling them weak or lazy, fat people talk about thin people needing to eat a sandwich or not look like a little girl or 12 year old boy. Anywhere you have people you are going to have others who are going to sneer at their choices in life. Everywhere. Instead of just admitting that, there are some people in this thread who want to turn it back to “Yeah but fat people are called lazy! Society blah blah blah.” Few people have said that fat people deserve to be bashed for any reason. Most people in this thread agree that it’s wrong, but hardly unique. What, exactly, is the point of playing the “who has it worse?” game? Do you honestly think that saying a woman is shallow and vain (for cosmetic surgery, makeup, etc) isn’t a character slam? Really? Why do we have to have a separate thread for FAT bashing? Why not talk about insulting people in general? Now, I await the latest diatribe about society and/or bringing up “going all Dseid” (how many times have you done that now? I’m starting to think you’re flattered) in 7th grade fashion. ALL people are mocked or treated badly for one reason or another whether it is religion (or lack of) or looks or education or social status or color of their skin. Being hateful is being hateful. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/209 "2010-07-13T00:48:52Z")
“Thin people bash fat people by calling them weak or lazy, fat people talk about thin people needing to eat a sandwich or not look like a little girl or 12 year old boy.” Ive been both and seen how each gets insulted. It isnt equal. You’re trying to argue as if all people get insulted about something so theres no difference between those two issues in how its experienced. Which simply isnt true. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/210 "2010-07-13T00:57:00Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > “Thin people bash fat people by calling them weak or lazy, fat people talk about thin people needing to eat a sandwich or not look like a little girl or 12 year old boy.” > > Ive been both and seen how each gets insulted. It isnt equal. You’re trying to argue as if all people get insulted about something so theres no difference between those two issues in how its experienced. > > Which simply isnt true. > > Otara Two separate insults do not need to be in equal proportion in order to be equally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/211 "2010-07-13T00:59:16Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > **Dseid** , you’re not worth a pitting. You, on the other hand, are treading very close to being “worth” a Warning. Your comments in this thread have persistently been personal in nature and even if you have not (quite) tiptoed over the line to a direct insult, you are doing nothing to promote the discussion, making nearly all your posts attacks on other posters. Ratchet it back and address issues rather than personalities. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/212 "2010-07-13T01:11:27Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I have no idea what your point is, but youi’ve clearly missed mine. > > Which is:\*\* if only weak-willed, lazy, self-indulgent, indifferent and gluttonous people become obese\*\* (a premise you accept and I do not), then obesity is not the issue, obesity is simply the exterior manifestation of these deeper, more fundamental character flaws. > > It therefore follows that the explosion of obesity is merely the indicator that there has been an explosion of weak-willed, lazy, self-indulgent, indifferent and gluttonous people. > > What would cause such a strange yet pronounced upsurge in the percentage of people with these unfortunate traits? Nope. You are missing my point, once again. And I believe you are doing so on purpose (probably because of the emotional pain you would experience if you chose to accept responsibility for yourself). The bolded part above does not represent my position. All I have said is that it is not impossible for any person to lose weight, so a person who is fat is responsible for their own fatness. And people who you see as bashing fat people are really just bashing people who deny these simple facts. That’s it. I haven’t said anything about gluttony or any of that other stuff. > [@DSeid](#): > > **Rand** , man up. Have some intellectual integrity. You made a claim about what fat people say on these boards that provokes all negative speech against them. At your request I provided examples of unprovoked name-calling against the fat and requested that you similarly provide examples of the claimed many times (always even) that fat people were whining that it was “impossible” for them to lose weight. You gave two examples that upon review were not in any way that. (One was someone’s varying recollections of what a bariatric center allegedly claimed in a radio ad, and one was someone who very much took his failure to lose weight as a sign of his personal failings and weaknesses.) I’ve made mistakes in what I’ve claimed; we all do. I have acknowledged my errors (including the use of the phrase “hate speech” in this op). Have enough intellectual spine to do the same. > > The oft repeated claim that fat people here “whine” about how it is “impossible” for them to lose weight, and that that is what provokes negative speech against the fat is an untruth. So is the claim that that negative speech against the fat is directed only against rude behavior committed by specific fat people with “fat” used as a mere descriptor. To have falsely believed one of those canards is one thing; to fail to acknowledge the error once it is made clear is a character flaw worse than laziness or gluttony. Dseid, your misunderstanding of the GQ thread you linked to gives me little hope of you not completely misunderstanding any other thread or post I link to. So I’m not going to do it. If that makes you think that you’ve won, then congratulations, you have. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/213 "2010-07-13T01:28:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You, on the other hand, are treading very close to being “worth” a Warning. Your comments in this thread have persistently been personal in nature and even if you have not (quite) tiptoed over the line to a direct insult, you are doing nothing to promote the discussion, making nearly all your posts attacks on other posters. > > Ratchet it back and address issues rather than personalities. > > [/Moderating] Awww it’s cute how you’re using my keyword in your moderating. It’s so meta! ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/214 "2010-07-13T01:41:41Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Hmmm, where could we find those? 😉 Seriously. I’m not in every thread, far from it. But in the threads I DO read, I haven’t noticed anyone mocking people who are _genuinely_ stupid. That’s mean. Of course, this is a limited forum for determining who is genuinely of limited intelligence vs. who is willfully ignorant, and the ignorant do get some raggitude, as I noted previously. That’s what the Dope is about. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/215 "2010-07-13T01:49:16Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > the ignorant do get some raggitude I won’t ask you for a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/216 "2010-07-13T01:50:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The bolded part above does not represent my position. All I have said is that it is not impossible for any person to lose weight, so a person who is fat is responsible for their own fatness. Has anyone denied this? I believe Dseid has asked you to provide cites of people claiming that it is impossible for them to lose weight and you’ve not done so. And you’ve declined to do so. I have always taken complete responsibility for myself and my life and everything in it, to a far greater degree than anyone you know, I’m sure. What you are willfully, I believe, skirting, are the facts and the statements that people have been making, none of which are “it’s impossible” or “it’s someone else’s fault”, so to respond as though that’s what you’re responding to isn’t sincere. If you want to be considered sincere and genuine in your arguments, respond directly to specifically what is said, instead of asserting that something different is being said and responding to that. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/217 "2010-07-13T01:56:48Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > If you want to be considered sincere and genuine in your arguments, respond directly to specifically what is said, instead of asserting that something different is being said and responding to that. Are you serious? You completely mischaracterized my position in the post you responded to, and then you get on my ass for “asserting that something different is being said and responding to that.” I don’t know what game your playing lady, but, like with Dseid up above, you may now declare victory. I’m tired of fighting your particular brand of ignorance on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/218 "2010-07-13T01:59:00Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Two separate insults do not need to be in equal proportion in order to be equally wrong. I don’t think that’s true at all. Proportion matters. And I think you know that. It’s wrong for me to hit you. Which means its wrong for me to slap your ass, and it’s also wrong for me to whack you in the head with a baseball bat. I think we both know that the two things are not equally wrong. The true nature of the insult matters. In this example, one is “you are too thin” the other is “you suffer from multiple serious and unattractive character flaws that extend into many areas of life”. Offering unasked for opinions about other people’s body proportions is wrong. Offering asked for opinions about other people’s characters’ especially when the opinion is formulated on nothing but the observation of someone’s body!!!, is also wrong, and way, way worse. One insult is about a person’s appearance. The other insult (BASED ON APPEARANCE… so utterly wrong in itself) is about who someone is as a person. Not equal. Not even close. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/219 "2010-07-13T02:19:04Z")
**TWEEEET!** EVERYONE knock it off with the personal remarks. I am tempted to issue a new ruling that all commentaries on obesity or anorexia are restricted to the Pit, since so few of you can play nice in such threads. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/220 "2010-07-13T02:44:09Z")
I started to point out to you how you are deliberately avoiding what is being said and pretending to be misunderstood… but then I realized: You are correct, Rand, I win you lose. Simply because you are not being remotely honest in your arguments. So we are done. All of the following are quotes of yours: > [@](#): > > What DOES happen is someone says “I’m fat and it’s not my fault, I’m just a poor victim of circumstances I can’t control, woe is me, here are some studies that prove it.” And then the people you are calling fat-bashers get on the fat person’s ass–but not for being fat, for being a whiny person with no sense of responsibility. > So if people get on your ass for being a whiner, don’t try to paint them as the bad guy for making fun of you for being fat, because that is not what they are doing. > [@](#): > > so of course you see all negative statements toward fat people as fat bashing. But the simple truth is that it’s usually not, at least on this message board, in my experience. It’s whiner bashing. > [@](#): > > Y > > I have seen very little evidence on this messageboard of people being pounced on for being fat. What you are taking as people being pounced on for being fat is really people being pounced on for being whiners who won’t take responsibility for their fatness. > > There is a huge difference, and you (and others) just absolutely refuse to see it. Y **ou see negative speech directed toward a fat person and you conclude that the person is being bashed because they are fat–that is almost invariably not the case in my experience.** > [@](#): > > Well, like I said, I’ve seen no evidence of “Fatties are delusional.” I have seen lots of “Whiners are whiny” and “Delusional people are delusional.” > [@](#): > > On this messageboard, I’ve never seen anyone bash someone else FOR BEING FAT. They have bashed a fat person FOR SAYING THAT BEING FAT IS NOT THEIR FAULT. These are two different things that are completely different. > > Why, dearest DSeid, do you not see a difference between these two different things? **Why must you keep repeating over and over ad nauseum that I think it’s OK to bash fat people for being fat? I don’t think that.** Dio doesn’t think that. I don’t think anyone thinks that. > > \*\*If someone just says they are fat in a thread, then I’ve never seen anyone bash that person for being fat. \*\* But the TRUTH is really… \*\* > [@](#): > > **I like bashing** delusional whiners. \*\* > [@](#): > > Stoid: The arrogance contained in this statement takes my breath away. > Rand: Too bad it doesn’t take your appetite away. > [@](#): > > Or we think it’s just funny, fatty. > [@](#): > > If someone is willing to let themselves become a fatty, then I doubt anything will be beneficial to them. They are too far gone. Which gets us back to “it’s just funny.” > [@](#): > > The first thing you may want to discover is how many more chins you have than the average non-fatty. > [@](#): > > That’s some advanced fatty thinking. > [@](#): > > Fat people are funny. Cite? Here’s my cite. And yet you still had the balls to type this and hit submit: > [@](#): > > I don’t like bashing fat people for being fat–never have and never will. And if by some small chance my assessment is mistaken, and you are not being willfully dishonest in your arguments, then your complete lack of self-awareness makes debating you an exercise in futility. Either way, I’m very much over it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=12)