# Fat hate speech? The role of the bystander. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160 "2010-07-01T04:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/241 "2010-07-13T23:06:09Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Yeah, I don’t get it either. The best way to not convince someone is to say (paraphrased) > a: You’re Wrong > S: No I’m not > a: Screw you, I’m outta here > > I may disagree with them (not sure yet, I’m on the fence), but Stoid and DSied have been the best debaters in this thread. **Stoid** argued that insults directed toward fat people about their fatness are always worse than insults directed against skinny people about their skinniness. I offered a hypothetical. She refused to address it. I decided to drop it. If the above is your synopsis, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I disagree that it’s accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/242 "2010-07-14T00:56:55Z")
The hypothetical is meaningless because no-one disputes that people can be bullied about anything, and that bullying can be cruel in itself once a topic is chosen. Or even that bullying can occur for being underweight. This does not mean there are not issues that are considered more acceptable by society to bully people over and excused more readily. You dont see people yelling comments down the street in the same way, and the fact you had to choose a schoolyard example is significant, because that transition is really the only time significant bullying over being skinny tends to occur. Its nasty, but not the life experience you see with overweight people, after that age stage its often about envy rather than about personality flaws. You are conflating single incidences with patterns of behaviour that can carry over a lifetime. Sometimes people do the ‘fat suit’ for a day and find out how strong the reaction can be due to simply changing your body size. If you dont do it you dont find out how ubiquitous it can really be. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/243 "2010-07-14T00:59:04Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > **Stoid** argued that insults directed toward fat people about their fatness are always worse than insults directed against skinny people about their skinniness. That is not an accurate statement. A careful reading of what I actually did argue will reveal your mistaken understanding. That is why I collected the conversation so you could read it all together and see how your hypothetical did not represent the point being made, so answering it wouldn’t further the sub-debate you and I were engaged in. I invite you to read it again. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/244 "2010-07-14T01:15:36Z")
**Lord Ashtar** , leaving behind that I do not believe **Stoid** at all “that insults directed toward fat people about their fatness are always worse than insults directed against skinny people about their skinniness”, and that saying that she claimed thus is a straw man, I did answer your hypothetical. And? Hypotheticals are nice. And in that hypothetical both are bullying to the same degree. Both are focused on teasing over a teen aged girl’s physical form in a hateful manner and focused on the looks. Is it your position that that hypothetical represents the sort of negative speech directed against members of each group in general through all ages of life? Teasing of the thin was brought up in this thread, I think, to try to posit that everyone gets teased and that negative speech against the fat is no different. And it isn’t always different but in general I believe it is. I believe that, in general negative speech against the fat is directed against the class as a group and attributes to members of the group negative characteristics similar in type to the prejudgements held by some against gays and Blacks (which in no way implies that the fat have in the past or currently do suffer from the violent oppression that has been the hallmark of oppression against those groups - in type but not in severity). I believe that bystanders have an obligation to stand up against bullying in all its forms. Including against the thin, or against addicts. Bullying against a class by society at large however, IMHO, engenders particular obligation upon the ethical bystander to speak up. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/245 "2010-07-14T02:13:01Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > OK, sure, but the one key ingredient is the will of the addict. Without that, no support system in the world is going to solve the problem. And I completely agree with that. The issue I have is with those who say that because it is not impossible to succeed, that any failure is because the person who failed is weak, or lazy, or stupid, or all three. And that berating the person for that is fair game. Berating a smoker who tried and failed to quit as any of those things is unacceptable to me; the more appropriate response is to encourage them to try again with a realistic understanding of the challenge (s)he faces and encouragement to try with a more complete support system and a better understanding of how their social networks and local environment may make it difficult for them. Telling them him/her (s)he is weak is ignorant and stupid. Similar to telling that to someone who says they have tried to sustainably lose fat and failed - the only difference being that sustainably losing fat (once morbidly obese) is objectively much more difficult. With assistance about 15% of smokers can expect to succeed in quitting; the success rate for the morbidly obese is much lower. > [@](#): > > The point is that no one feels bad for smokers…they get criticized, told they are stupid, called disgusting (ok, it’s their habit and the effects that are called disgusting…but how is that different from calling the habit and the effects of overeating disgusting?) … Majorly different. The obese are not being told that the habit of overeating is disgusting, they are being told that _they_ are. OTOH I’ve heard a smoker being told that starting to smoke was a stupid decision, but never that the smoker was stupid or lazy as an intrinsic part of who they are, that being a smoker means that they have less worth as a human being. And if I heard such speech I’d object to it, as much as I object to individual smokers who feel they have the right to impose their smoke in my face. (And in that case it is that specific behavior that I object to.) A smoker has the option of smoking only with other smokers or in private and not placing themselves as potentially subject to harassment; an obese person has no such option. Finally do you believe that there is the same widely held visceral disgust against smokers in our society as there is against the fat? Such has not been what I’ve observed in general or seen on these boards. Does that make sense to you? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/246 "2010-07-14T02:32:59Z")
> [@villa](#): > > \ It’s societal sexism at work, not sizism. I would suggest it’s sexism based on sizism. **DSeid** , I think your point of people vilifying the habit rather than the person in the smoker vs. fat person debate is extremely germane. I hadn’t thought of it that way before, but I think you’re absolutely right, and that’s what makes the fat-hating so personal and painful. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/247 "2010-07-24T03:11:17Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > IF it’s true that fat people can absolutely be healthy _regardless of their weight_, then why is the fact of them losing weight or not so important? This is disingenuous. I don’t believe that an obese person has any better shot of adopting a healthy diet and exercise and _not_ losing weight than they do of making those changes and actually losing weight. How could this work? The latter has the positive reinforcement of losing weight, at least. The former is all the same work with no measurable change, meaning it is much more likely to be abandoned. Both approaches achieve the same health benefit. Unless there is some other way I’m unaware of to get healthy than eating a healthy diet and exercising? The whole reason they’re obese in the first place is because they are unable to do exactly that. So the idea that an obese person can get healthy _instead of_ losing weight appears (to me, at least) ridiculous on its face. > [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > In other words, the evidence has found, ‘‘fat people can be healthy, if they learn to engage in the right behaviors.’’ In fact, my friend, some studies have indicated that slightly overweight people who engage in healthy behaviors such as nutritious diets and routine exercise [are likely to live longer](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.c7aaeb7940626693fa418a1eab2291f6.81) than their thin counterparts. That’s misleading. The **counterparts** of “slightly overweight people who [have] nutritious diets and [do] routine exercise” are “slightly _under_weight people who [have] nutritious diets and [do] routine exercise,” right? But that’s not who the group actually is, is it? No, the other group – that you misleadingly refer to as “counterparts” – is described as “very skinny.” No mention of diet or exercise, but it does mention that “many of them are sick or smoke.” Many of them are sick? Sick, skinny people? You mean, like cancer patients? Gee, what a complete shock that the group of slightly overweight people with good diet and exercise habits lives longer than the group of _all very skinny people, many of whom are sick_. The two groups have absolutely nothing to do with each other. It’s hard not to view your use of the word “counterpart” as an outright lie, though I’m pretty sure most of the blame lies on the linked article, which itself has a misleading and inappropriate title. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/248 "2010-07-24T05:16:37Z")
**Ellis Dee** , I suggest you re-read the link. The study was specifically controlling for factors like illness and smoking. > [@](#): > > “There had been an argument that thin people’s lives are short because many of them are sick or smoke. But the difference was almost unchanged even when we eliminated these factors,” Kuriyama said. In fact it is pretty well established. Those with BMI’s under 18 have a higher mortality than “normal weight” individuals and “overweight” individuals. The latter generally have the lowest mortality in most (but not all) studies. Mortality increases as one gets into the obese groupings (BMI 30 and above). [Here’s](http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v18/n1/full/oby2009191a.html) a recent one. > [@](#): > > A significant increased risk of mortality over the 12 years of follow-up was observed for underweight (BMI \<18.5; relative risk (RR) = 1.73, P \< 0.001) and obesity class II+ (BMI \>35; RR = 1.36, P \<0.05). Overweight (BMI 25 to \<30) was associated with a significantly decreased risk of death (RR = 0.83, P \< 0.05). The RR was close to one for obesity class I (BMI 30–35; RR = 0.95, P \>0.05). Our results are similar to those from other recent studies, confirming that underweight and obesity class II+ are clear risk factors for mortality, and showing that when compared to the acceptable BMI category, overweight appears to be protective against mortality. Obesity class I was not associated with an increased risk of mortality. … Analyses stratified by sex, age, and smoking status yielded a similar pattern of results (Table 2), as did analyses excluding deaths in the first 4 years of follow-up and deaths due to external causes. The main deviation from the observed patterns of results was the effect of underweight by age. For the younger participants (aged 25–59), underweight was not associated with an increased risk of mortality. However, for older participants (aged 60+), being underweight was associated with a significantly increased risk of mortality (RR = 1.88 (1.32–2.68)). Underweight was a significant risk factor among men (RR = 2.54 (1.47–4.37)) and women (RR = 1.50 (1.01–2.22)). Obesity class II+ was a significant risk factor among men, but not among women, while overweight was significantly protective for women, but not men. Among both smokers and nonsmokers, underweight was associated with a significantly increased risk of mortality, while overweight was significantly protective. … the coefficients related to BMI were only marginally different between models excluding and including physical activity. In order to address the potential for reverse causation, we conducted analyses excluding deaths occurring in the first 4 years of the study. The results were not significantly affected. Careful analysis shows that the lowest mortality is associated with a BMI somewhere between upper normal and mild overweight (about 24 to 28 range). [Here’s](http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/64A/6/695.abstract) another interesting study. > [@](#): > > Low body mass index (BMI) and low cardiorespiratory fitness (CRF) are independently associated with increased mortality in the elderly. … the lowest mortality risk was observed in obese men with high fitness (HR [95% CI] 0.26 [0.10–0.69]; p = .007). Now I wouldn’t take these studies and use them to advise anyone that being “overweight” is healthier than “normal” weight, but the point is that the biggest benefits accrue from the lifestyle choices, whether or not the weight follows. Yes, it may. But it may not and healthwise it doesn’t matter all that much if it does. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/249 "2010-07-25T14:05:56Z")
Fair point, but even discounting the sick and the smokers, it’s disingenuous to cite “slightly overweight with good diet and exercise” as the counterpart to “very skinny.” I bet the “slightly thin with good diet and exercise” fare much better than the “very skinny” group too. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/250 "2010-07-25T15:35:12Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I know a person who is getting slowly fatter by the day and aint doing a damn thing about it besides telling everybody that it is happening. On the flip side a few months ago I saw a very large woman at the convience store first thing in the morning. She had just bought a big sub sandwhich. She shoved that thing in her mouth like an anaconda swallowing a water buffalo. It was gone and down in moments. I have a friend from childhood who did that…a lot. All through high school and after he’d always ask “Hey, do you think I’m fat?”. He was. We all knew it. He knew it. He just wanted me and the rest of his friends to say 'Oh, you’re not that fat" or something. Finally one day when he asked me that as we walked down the street looking at girls (hey we were around 18 then) I justsaid 'YES! You’re fat! I’m tired of you asking me that so you can feel better about stuffing your gob with twinkies! You’re a fat ass!". That was almost 20 years ago and the guy is still fat and has health problems because of it, now that we’re both in our mid to late 40s. I have another friend, actually a girl I used to date that must weigh around 250 pounds. She didn’t weigh that much when I dated her, but she has some kind of kidney problem or something that caused her to balloon up. I understand that. Its not really her fault and she does try to keep her weight down, even if she can’t seem to shake must of it off. Another buddy of mine got kinda fat but in the last year decided to take up bike riding to exercise. He’s lost weightbut not without effort and watching what he eats. > [@](#): > > My beef is that IMO plenty, if not an actual majority, of people are in the first group but like to think that they are in the second group and are therefore totally blameless. I’d have to agree. If you’re fat because you et too much and don’t do anything to lose weight then really, you shouldn’t complain when people call you fat. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/251 "2010-07-25T23:02:15Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Fair point, but even discounting the sick and the smokers, it’s disingenuous to cite “slightly overweight with good diet and exercise” as the counterpart to “very skinny.” I bet the “slightly thin with good diet and exercise” fare much better than the “very skinny” group too. “Very skinny” was just how someone described the BMI category under “normal”, officially called “underweight”. And yes, “slightly thin” has less mortality than below “normal” BMI. But “slightly overweight” has a lesser mortality rate than both. Matched for other other variables, including the amount of exercise, the “slightly thin” have a higher mortality rate than the “slightly overweight”. **Jolly** , did calling him a “fat ass” help him more than lying to him did? Maybe, since he was asking, from early on, you could have told him that yes, he was fat and getting fatter and that you, as a friend, were concerned. He may have gotten insulted anyway, or not. It may not have helped. He may just have stopped asking you after that since you were no longer going to give him his daily dose of positive affirmation. But probably there was other options than either lying or using _insulting_ speech. Maybe even just answering matter of factly: “Yes, you are fat.”? Was there a reason you did not consider one of those other options? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=12)