# Fat hate speech? The role of the bystander. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160 "2010-07-01T04:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/41 "2010-07-01T18:45:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I still feel bad about the time I was on an emergency department rotation in med school, and participated in the workup of a morbidly obese young woman who came in with what turned out to be a minor complaint. After relaying his diagnosis and recommendations, the attending ER doc looked at her and commented “You need to eat less” and walked out. > > I really should have apologized in some way for his jerkitude. > > Which is what is was, not “hate speech” in my book. > > There is no threat of violence or denial of basic human rights to a person if you walk up to them and chant “Fat, Fat, the Water Rat!” or make cutting remarks about the obese on a message board. It’s just low class. I agree. Jerk-speech is not necessarily Hate-speech. Hurt feelings does not put anyone in harms way. “You need to eat less” and walking out on a patient would have gotten that physician serious consequences at my employment, where patients would often be mailed a questionnaire asking about their recent visit. In the 80’s, I worked with a crazy ass neonatologist who once looked at a baby and said to the parents: “That is the ugliest baby I have ever seen.” Then, he left. I remained and attempted to clean up his mess. Jerks come in white coats too. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/42 "2010-07-01T18:50:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ve never seen someone say “I’m fat” and then just have other posters come out swinging at them. Hasn’t happened, in my experience. What DOES happen is someone says “I’m fat and it’s not my fault, I’m just a poor victim of circumstances I can’t control, woe is me, here are some studies that prove it.” And then the people you are calling fat-bashers get on the fat person’s ass–but not for being fat, for being a whiny person with no sense of responsibility. A winrar is you. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/43 "2010-07-01T19:04:30Z")
Here is what I think is interesting. Saying unpleasant things to fat people isnt just rude or unhelpful or incorrect or misguided. It could be HATE SPEECH. And, not only THAT, all you mean old bystanders out there are guilty as well! You big bunch of meanies…all of you! IMO thats fault deflection and excuses brought to a whole nuther level. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/44 "2010-07-01T19:32:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Meh. I think Dseid and Duke and others are misunderstanding many of the situations on this board where they see people bashing fat folks. > > I’ve never seen someone say “I’m fat” and then just have other posters come out swinging at them. Hasn’t happened, in my experience. Even if they didn’t “just” say that, how does that absolve insult-flinging in GQ? It seems there’s a bit of a blind spot there. If someone wants to Pit someone over what they consider as mealy-mouthed comments, go ahead. But it seems to me there’s a bit of a double standard about it. You can’t (and I’d back this 100%) say “Republicans are misguided and wrong” in GQ, but it seems somehow OK to say “Fatties are delusional” there. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/45 "2010-07-01T20:06:01Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Even if they didn’t “just” say that, how does that absolve insult-flinging in GQ? It seems there’s a bit of a blind spot there. If someone wants to Pit someone over what they consider as mealy-mouthed comments, go ahead. But it seems to me there’s a bit of a double standard about it. You can’t (and I’d back this 100%) say “Republicans are misguided and wrong” in GQ, but it seems somehow OK to say “Fatties are delusional” there. Well, like I said, I’ve seen no evidence of “Fatties are delusional.” I have seen lots of “Whiners are whiny” and “Delusional people are delusional.” And I agree that GQ is not an appropriate place for any of these remarks, but it sounds like people in this thread are upset about much more than just posts in GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/46 "2010-07-01T20:11:31Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, like I said, I’ve seen no evidence of “Fatties are delusional.” I have seen lots of “Whiners are whiny” and “Delusional people are delusional.” In the locked GQ thread **Gruntled** supplied this gem in response to one of my posts: > [@](#): > > Fatties, OTOH, know perfectly well that they are eating too much, but either lie about it or are in denial. So, OK, actually “Fatties are either liars or in denial.” Pretty close to what I said though. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/47 "2010-07-01T20:19:13Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > . You can’t (and I’d back this 100%) say “Republicans are misguided and wrong” in GQ, but it seems somehow OK to say “Fatties are delusional” there. Depends on what you mean by “delusional”. Fat people, statistically speaking, often claim the following which on average IMO is NOT true. I am not fat (the doctors and society and the charts disagree). I am not fat because I am not fatter than many people around me (who are fat). Being fat is not unhealthy (yeah the doctors only want you thin so you look good). I don’t eat much (though the only people that eat more than you are fatter than you). I only eat healthy food (you know, the good stuff, like PF Changs). I only eat XYZ calories per day (but, when checked carefully it is actually XYZ plus a good bit more). I exercise like crazy (once around the block per day). I CAN NOT loose weight (though people just like you HAVE) Is EVERY fat person guilty of ALL these “delusions”? Of course not. Are a darn good fraction of em at least guilty of one, if not many of em? Yes IMO and IME. Maybe “delusional” ain’t the best word, but OTOH I don’t think its totally misleading BS wordsmithing and name calling either. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/48 "2010-07-01T20:22:06Z")
Duke, like I just said, I don’t think that’s OK in GQ, but the OP of this thread and other coments were not confined to GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/49 "2010-07-01T20:25:32Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Is EVERY fat person guilty of ALL these “delusions”? Of course not. Are a darn good fraction of em at least guilty of one, if not many of em? Yes IMO and IME. Again, there seems to be a double standard. I could argue, for example, that most Republicans are guilty of a whole raft of misguided ideas. That doesn’t make it OK for me to claim that they’re all “misguided” in GQ, for example (and throw in an insulting term for them while I’m doing that, to boot). It seems as though you’re arguing that that’s OK as long as we’re talking about “fat people.” ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/50 "2010-07-01T20:28:59Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Duke, like I just said, I don’t think that’s OK in GQ, but the OP of this thread and other coments were not confined to GQ. No, but I think it’s an example of what he’s getting at. Nobody would have thought twice about slamming a comment like that down if it were targeted at a political group, which is most definitely a group people belong to by choice. But when the same kind of comment is made against “fatties” the people who use it claim it’s acceptable because…well, being fat is a choice, they argue. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/51 "2010-07-01T20:46:45Z")
Truth is not a defense against being a jerk. Insults are insulting, whether they are true or not. There is no moral obligation to stand up for anyone else. That is why it’s admirable when someone does defend another. Assuming that a person who doesn’t speak out is implicitly agreeing with the insults is itself insulting. Lack of comment means nothing more than no comment was made. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/52 "2010-07-01T20:54:58Z")
I am overweight. You might even say I’m fat. (Picture, say, [Seth Rogen](http://austinfitness.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/seth_rogen.jpg) before he slimmed down.) I know damn well I should eat less and exercise more. Occasionally I make concerted efforts to lose weight, with varying degrees of success. I find it difficult to stick to such habits long-term. Think of me what you will for that. But even though I realize that my physical condition is mostly within my own control, I _will_ get upset if you call me “fatso” or “tubby” or lazy or a slob. Why? Because it’s just rude and mean and stupid. And I don’t understand why anybody would cling so hard to the position that it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/53 "2010-07-01T20:56:01Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Again, there seems to be a double standard. I could argue, for example, that most Republicans are guilty of a whole raft of misguided ideas. That doesn’t make it OK for me to claim that they’re all “misguided” in GQ, for example (and throw in an insulting term for them while I’m doing that, to boot). It seems as though you’re arguing that that’s OK as long as we’re talking about “fat people.” Tell me how what I listed wasnt generally “delusional” in some way. And I like how you threw that “all” in there. And “misguided” is a BS analogy anyway. If you were complaining about the Repubs and how their pro gun agenda was bad for the country that would be a better ananlogy. Because, generally speaking, they ARE “pro gun”. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/54 "2010-07-01T22:41:56Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Tell me how what I listed wasnt generally “delusional” in some way. And I like how you threw that “all” in there. And I certainly wasn’t referring to your comment, rather that of **Gruntled** which I quoted in my reply to **Rand Rover**. > [@](#): > > And “misguided” is a BS analogy anyway. If you were complaining about the Repubs and how their pro gun agenda was bad for the country that would be a better ananlogy. Because, generally speaking, they ARE “pro gun”. Sure, but I wouldn’t be arguing that “Republicans are misguided because many of them are pro-gun” in that case I’d be arguing that “pro-gun Republicans are misguided _in_ their policies etc. etc.” ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/55 "2010-07-02T01:38:57Z")
I think diabetes is the most useful comparison in that it can be lifestyle related or caused by genetic factors, but gets nowhere near the vitriol it seems to with weight related issues. And Im pretty sure people attacking people with that condition would get a different reception as well. Which suggests to me that people understanding of obesity and perceived social permission to attack people with the issue is part of the picture. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/56 "2010-07-02T05:56:26Z")
Wow. Seriously? I was one of the people who wanted **Gruntled** to knock it off but to call it hate speech? Yikers, do we need to look that hard for things to be offended by? Two things: #1 > [@Otara](#): > > I think diabetes is the most useful comparison in that it can be lifestyle related or caused by genetic factors, but gets nowhere near the vitriol it seems to with weight related issues. And Im pretty sure people attacking people with that condition would get a different reception as well. > > Which suggests to me that people understanding of obesity and perceived social permission to attack people with the issue is part of the picture. > > Otara Otara (how do I know it’s Otara, because he/she has to tell us in every.single.comment even though every comment has their username on it but I digress), you’re absolutely right that diabetes can be lifestyle related. What is almost ALWAYS hand in hand with this lifestyle related diagnosis? Obesity. So I’m not sure that’s the best example. #2 > [@DSeid](#): > > \>snip\< or that the cites are cherry picked (they are not) \>snip\< Come on. As a medical professional you know that’s a bit false. There are so many differing opinions on obesity within the medical community that for almost every cite you find that agrees with you, someone else could find one that gives studies where what you posted is false. Let’s not play games, there is a certain amount of cherry picking on either side of this issue. Like others have said I think the reason most of these topics get derailed is that it always seems that people want to wave a flag for the case of the exception, not the rule. Most overweight people are overweight because they eat more than they burn off by exercising. Of course there are a multitude of reasons they got heavy. There are lots of reasons people end up bankrupt or in jail, too. We all have circumstances in our lives that cause us pain and makes it difficult for us in one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/57 "2010-07-02T06:07:49Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Yikers, do we need to look that hard for things to be offended by? Not that it isn’t offensive, because it is! I just think then we’d have to cut out all the name calling of: religious believers, political opponents, emo kids, hipsters, etc etc ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/58 "2010-07-02T06:58:08Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > …the only realistic stance is THAT there IS a fuzzy line somewhere between “just fix it” and “I honestly can’t help/control myself” where a person’s excuse is either good enough or not… > My beef is that IMO plenty, if not an actual majority, of people are in the first group but like to think that they are in the second group and are therefore totally blameless. Okay. The first part I can buy. It’s the second part that totally illogical: the only realistic stance is that few fit at either extreme, that it can be very very difficult but not literally impossible, but you think that most are at one extreme … and that believe, based on nothing than your WAG, justifies … “insulting” speech at a whole class of people? Sorry, that’s really messed up thinking. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/59 "2010-07-02T08:31:28Z")
As to those who want to continue to hijack over what qualifies as “hate speech” - again, while I personally believe that the term applies, the question of my op is the same if you leave it as “insulting speech” or “bullying” or just “jerk-speech”. And I will state that [discrimination against the fat](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11743063?dopt=Abstract&holding=npg), while in no way comparable to that endured by gays, Blacks, etc, [does occur](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18978769). **gruntled** now claims that calling people names, that disparaging a complete class of humans, is justified because they drive up health care costs. No. I don’t think so. > [@Rand Rover](#): > > I’ve never seen someone say “I’m fat” and then just have other posters come out swinging at them. Hasn’t happened, in my experience. What DOES happen is someone says “I’m fat and it’s not my fault, I’m just a poor victim of circumstances I can’t control, woe is me, here are some studies that prove it.” And then the people you are calling fat-bashers get on the fat person’s ass–but not for being fat, for being a whiny person with no sense of responsibility. … You have not been in the same threads that I’ve been in then, including the linked one. And didn’t read the op. The circumstance that I see is that the soap box about how weak and lazy fat people are comes first much more often. And yes, I believe that that is an ignorant statement based on stereotyping, but my issue and op is specifically not with that belief but with the use of terms like “weak assed fatties” as a tolerated form of speech in those discussions. Again, in the Pit, maybe. In GQ, in GD, or in the real world talking to real obese people face to face? No. You want to discuss obesity and personal responsibility? Fine. Likewise, if someone believes that homosexuality is a bad thing and a choice, and many in this country still do, I can have that discussion with them. But I will not listen to them call those of that orientation “fags” without objecting. You _can_ see the difference? **wilbo** you really think generic blonde jokes are analogous to “fattie” comments? C’mon. People do not really hold a belief that blondes as a group are stupid (or at least anyone who did would be thought of as a complete idiot by most all) and blonde jokes are pretty damn rare in my experience in any case. > [@billfish](#): > > Fat people, statistically speaking, often claim the following which on average IMO is NOT true. > > I am not fat (the doctors and society and the charts disagree). > I am not fat because I am not fatter than many people around me (who are fat). > Being fat is not unhealthy (yeah the doctors only want you thin so you look good). > I don’t eat much (though the only people that eat more than you are fatter than you). > I only eat healthy food (you know, the good stuff, like PF Changs). > I only eat XYZ calories per day (but, when checked carefully it is actually XYZ plus a good bit more). > I exercise like crazy (once around the block per day). > I CAN NOT loose weight (though people just like you HAVE) Oh please provide me with the statistics, or did you just make that up? My personal experience is that those “delusions” are very rarely held: most people who are obese (not just overweight but seriously obese) know it and are dissatisfied with their body image; know that it, or at least the behaviors that are traveling with it, are a risk to their long term health and their short term sense of well-being; actually blame their own moral failings for the condition\* more\* than is justified; and have been able to lose some weight in the past but have never been able keep it off - which IS the experience of the vast majority of those with obesity as a medical fact and based on some very real physiologic reasons, cited in the past thread. Is my personal experience more reflective of reality or is yours? Well, perhaps we can agree that the real people we are talking to at any particular time may be a member of either set and that to assume that they are deserving of denigration on the basis of their obesity is a bit … presumptuous? > [@pleonast](#): > > There is no moral obligation to stand up for anyone else. That is why it’s admirable when someone does defend another. Assuming that a person who doesn’t speak out is implicitly agreeing with the insults is itself insulting. Lack of comment means nothing more than no comment was made. Thank you for offering an opinion related to the point of the op. I disagree with you but I appreciate the on-topic response. I believe that societies only work because we do have social and moral obligations to each other. > [@sleeps with butterflies](#): > > … Come on. As a medical professional you know that’s a bit false. There are so many differing opinions on obesity within the medical community that for almost every cite you find that agrees with you, someone else could find one that gives studies where what you posted is false. As a medical professional who has read on this subject quite a bit, I actually know that that is not false, not a bit, at least not the studies part\*. In short, put up or shut up. Find those equal number of cites in the medical literature that contradict the cites I have provided and post them please. You won’t because they do not exist. \*The _opinions_ part, yeah. Medical professional are also guilty of holding stereotypes and then having confirmation bias. We have lots of jerks in our numbers and no shortage of ignorance. Do a survey and you’ll find a fair number who are unaware of the actual literature and research science behind obesity even when they are nurses who work in bariatric centers. The _science_ though is as presented. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/60 "2010-07-02T08:39:16Z")
Ah yes, DSeid knows better than anyone. Of course. I’ve seen you freak out in a few of these threads before (like the last one where you seemed to be drunk and not that you care, but I’ll go on believing the studies I’ve read from the doctors I work with who’ve dedicated their careers to this subject and skip the guy on the internet who has proven himself to be anything but unbiased when it comes to this subject. I realize, of course, we’ll both sleep just fine with this decision of mine. You go on with your little “hate speech” movement though. Enjoy yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=4)