# Fat hate speech? The role of the bystander. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160 "2010-07-01T04:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/81 "2010-07-03T01:02:03Z")
**billfish** I really do not think that either you or **sleeps** even bothered to read any of the cites that I offered, or even their snips. What “self-reports” are you talking about? The self report that was blood test results of ghrelin levels? The laboratory data on muscle metabolic rates decreasing after weight loss? The self report that was measured weight loss in clinic settings at various time points? The WebMD review of the literature? The Science article documenting improvements in measures of diabetes control after bariatric surgery and persistent weight loss resultant of it? Which one? Again, read the op: no I am not and have never stated that calling a fat person fat is insulting. I have stated that calling fat people lazy and weak and using terms such as “lazy assed fattie” crosses a line that should not be tolerated outside of The Pit. **Rand Rover** what thread are you looking at? The title of the linked thread was “1/3 of overweight people can never lose weight by dieting. T/F?” That was not a “it’s not my fault” statement. It was a GQ about the accuracy of a radio ad that the op had heard that, per the body of the op claimed “that for 1/3 of severely overweight people, no amount of dieting is ever going to help them” while a surgical procedure would. In fact the vast majority of severely overweight individuals will never sustainably lose any significant amount of weight by dieting. The success at achieving that is extremely small (see cites provided in the previous thread - not self-reports) and bariatric surgery will be successful for the vast majority of those who have failed multiple medically supervised plans. The fact that you read that as someone saying “it’s not my fault” speaks volumes as to the bias that some here have. The first personal vingette was endorsing the need for sensible long term dieting. And then the they lack the willpower and they “won’t” comments popped up, soon followed in fairly short order by the fatties and lazy assed fatties comments. I actually didn’t see any it’s not faults, just some yeah it is doable but damn it is hard and not succeeding doesn’t equal weakness. What “personal stake” do you assume I have? No, I have no skin in the game. I am not obese and only ocassionally have a BMI that strays into overweight. I do triathlons, wear size 30 waist pants, and lift well over my body weight, and am getting close to being able to do my first muscle-up, which is not bad for a short bald 50 year old. My “personal stake” is this: I hate bullies and always have; I hate when people who don’t know the actual science and data mouth off as experts and then refuse to even READ the actual science when it is spoon fed to them because it conflicts with their prejudices; and people who make claims that are false annoy the crap out of me. **Dio** please at least read the state of the art science on obesity linked to in the last thread. You are better than this. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/82 "2010-07-03T01:07:18Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It was correct the first time, too. Who gives a shit? It’s irrelevant to the main point of discussion in the OP, and offers nothing new to the thread. Lots of things that are true don’t need to be mentioned in every thread. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/83 "2010-07-03T01:13:48Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Rand Rover** what thread are you looking at? The title of the linked thread was “1/3 of overweight people can never lose weight by dieting. T/F?” That was not a “it’s not my fault” statement. Yes it is–notice the use of the word “can,” which means “possible,” and “never,” which turns the “can” into “impossible.” > [@](#): > > In fact the vast majority of severely overweight individuals will never sustainably lose any significant amount of weight by dieting. Just because they will not lose weight doesn’t mean they cannot lose weight. This is the very simple point you are repeatedly missing. > [@](#): > > The success at achieving that is extremely small (see cites provided in the previous thread - not self-reports) and bariatric surgery will be successful for the vast majority of those who have failed multiple medically supervised plans. Again, looking at the problem from a top-down perspective is entirely different from looking at it from a personal perspective. It may be true that a large percentage of fat people don’t lose weight, that doesn’t mean that it’s not the fault of any individual fat person if that individual fat person doesn’t lose weight. > [@](#): > > The fact that you read that as someone saying “it’s not my fault” speaks volumes as to the bias that some here have. And the fact that you repeatedly miss the points I’m making speaks volumes about your bias. > [@](#): > > What “personal stake” do you assume I have? You just seem very interested in the issue, that’s all I mean. > [@](#): > > No, I have no skin in the game. I am not obese and only ocassionally have a BMI that strays into overweight. I do triathlons, wear size 30 waist pants, and lift well over my body weight, and am getting close to being able to do my first muscle-up, which is not bad for a short bald 50 year old. Good for you. > [@](#): > > My “personal stake” is this: I hate bullies and always have; I hate when people who don’t know the actual science and data mouth off as experts and then refuse to even READ the actual science when it is spoon fed to them because it conflicts with their prejudices; and people who make claims that are false annoy the crap out of me. And I hate when people assume that others are bashing “fatties” when they are really bashing whiners, and I hate when they can’t understand the difference between a public health perspective on an issue and a personal perspective. > [@](#): > > **Dio** please at least read the state of the art science on obesity linked to in the last thread. You are better than this. Actually, he’s worse than this–he happens to be right on this issue. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/84 "2010-07-03T01:18:54Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Who gives a shit? It’s irrelevant to the main point of discussion in the OP, and offers nothing new to the thread. Lots of things that are true don’t need to be mentioned in every thread. Whether a person can control their weight is relevant to deciding whether calling someone a fattie is hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/85 "2010-07-03T01:22:03Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Whether a person can control their weight is relevant to deciding whether calling someone a fattie is hate speech. Good thing nobody is claiming that people are unable to control their weight. On top of that, Dio wasn’t even addressing the OP’s question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/86 "2010-07-03T01:30:02Z")
I addressed the OP’s question in my first post. I think the speech can sometimes be fairly characterized as bullying, but not as hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/87 "2010-07-03T01:37:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I addressed the OP’s question in my first post. I think the speech can sometimes be fairly characterized as bullying, but not as hate speech. I know you did, and I thought it was a decent post. Brief and to the point. I just didn’t want this discussion to collapse into the same argument that appears in every other thread on the subject. “It’s the fatties’ fault that they’re fat!” “But it’s harder for some people” “Then they’re weak.” “Nuh-uh!” Repeat for 9 pages. Sorry for jumping your shit. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/88 "2010-07-03T01:52:01Z")
**Dio** does however illustrate exactly what I am talking about: Here, to refresh people’s minds, is the key portion of the op. > [@](#): > > Anytime the subject of fatness, comes up, no matter how specific the actual op, there seem to be a host of people who feel the need to offer their unsolicited “expert” advice to the obese, usually in the form of making sure that they realize how weak willed they are and how it is all their fault. If you believe that please read the last two pages of that thread before you open up a new one to promote that position. But referring to a group as “fatties”, let alone “weak-assed fatties”, goes clearly goes beyond ignorance and into an intent to offend, into an intent to bully. > > My question however is centered not on the bully, or on the bullied, but on the bystander: > > What is our ethical obligation as witnesses to hate speech or to an act of bullying? And of course in come the “experts” calling people “fatties”. No **Dio** you did not answer that op by commenting on whether or not it is hate speech and by saying that no one should be bullied and then posting as you just did. And you are not so stupid as to not realize that. Tell me **AClockworkMelon** , _why_ how controllable obesity is relevant to calling them names? Is it your position that if someone completely chooses to be fat that it is okay to insult them? Here again is a [WebMD](http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/123702-overview) review about the current state of medical knowledge about obesity, and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12625810&postcount=105) is my post with several other citations, for anyone who actually _does_ have an interest in reducing their ignorance. I have little expectation that those who feel justified in insulting the obese will read them. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/89 "2010-07-03T01:56:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I have little expectation that those who feel justified in insulting the obese will read them. Who’s insulting the obese? No one in this thread is insulting the obese. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/90 "2010-07-03T01:58:13Z")
To the extent that I agree with hate speech exceptionalism (which, if it’s not obvious, I absolutely do not)… It’s only really apropos for people’s wholly immutable characteristics. I may even be so bold as to extend that to immutable characteristics that have, for absolutely no rational reason, been the subject of baseless persecution in history. This is why calling people “short trolls” or “tall giants” is not hate speech. They’re immutable, but there hasn’t been a dwarf pogrom in my lifetime. This is why calling people “fat pieces of lard” is not hate speech. It’s neither wholly immutable nor subject to baseless, pointless persecution. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/91 "2010-07-03T02:07:55Z")
**Rand** and note that in the body (repeated in my post as well) he stated that the ad said “is ever going to”. As I stated in that thread we do not have the actual ad copy. In any case that was NOT in ANY WAY someone whining about how it was impossible for them to lose weight. It was a bariatric surgical program advert. You want to look at the individual person. Good. The individual person is the person who none of you jerks actually know. All you know about them is that they are fat. You however freely assume that because they are fat they are deserving of insults: They must be lazy and weak because they are fat and I am justified in berating them with no more knowledge than that. You think “fattie” is a neutral descriptive word? Sorry. That word is used to denigrate. “Fat” is fine. “Obese” and “morbidly obese” mean something. “Fattie” is an immature taunt. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/92 "2010-07-03T02:21:56Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You however freely assume that because they are fat they are deserving of insults: They must be lazy and weak because they are fat and I am justified in berating them with no more knowledge than that. Nope. You’re wrong. The opposite of right. You are incorrect. I’ve decided to just keep repeating myself in the vain hope that you will eventually get it. On this messageboard, I’ve never seen anyone bash someone else FOR BEING FAT. They have bashed a fat person FOR SAYING THAT BEING FAT IS NOT THEIR FAULT. These are two different things that are completely different. Why, dearest DSeid, do you not see a difference between these two different things? Why must you keep repeating over and over ad nauseum that I think it’s OK to bash fat people for being fat? I don’t think that. Dio doesn’t think that. I don’t think anyone thinks that. If someone just says they are fat in a thread, then I’ve never seen anyone bash that person for being fat. If someone says that it is physically impossible for them to lose weight, then I have seen people bash them for saying that. Do you seriously not see a difference? How many more times am I going to have to point out this difference before you even realize that I’m pointing out a difference (whether you see it or not)? And then how many more times before you address it? If you thought the difference didn’t matter, or something, then that would be one thing. But you just don’t see it. You are absolutely blind to it. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/93 "2010-07-03T02:30:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ve decided to just keep repeating myself in the vain hope that you will eventually get it. > > On this messageboard, I’ve never seen anyone bash someone else FOR BEING FAT. Then you haven’t been paying attention. He has repeatedly cited the use of the word “fattie” as an example of bashing fat people for being fat. People use it a lot around here in an attempt to let the world know that they aren’t old enough to buy a beer. Even those of us who are tall and thin think it’s juvenile & dickish. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/94 "2010-07-03T02:37:04Z")
Because my dearest Rand Rover I have seen it again and again and am unable to comprehend how you have not. Or do you think that “fattie” is a neutral term? Again show me in that linked thread where any fat person said it wasn’t their fault? I can show you where the experts started chiming in about how weak fat people are and by [post 37](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12625810&postcount=105) it crossed the line: > [@](#): > > The weak ass fatties need to eat less, move more. Which individual fat person who was whining and claiming it’s not his/her fault was that responding to? And which of us is blind? And why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/95 "2010-07-03T02:37:18Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Then you haven’t been paying attention. He has repeatedly cited the use of the word “fattie” as an example of bashing fat people for being fat. People use it a lot around here in an attempt to let the world know that they aren’t old enough to buy a beer. Even those of us who are tall and thin think it’s juvenile & dickish. If all Dseid objected to was people using the term “fatty,” then you’d have a point. But he’s not so you don’t. I agree that saying “fatty” is not nice. But Dseid isn’t just mad at people that say “fatty.” He’s mad at people that get on fat people’s cases when the fat people say that being fat is not their fault. And that’s different than getting on a fat person’s case for being fat. And Dseid doesn’t see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/96 "2010-07-03T02:40:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Because my dearest Rand Rover I have seen it again and again and am unable to comprehend how you have not. Or do you think that “fattie” is a neutral term? > > Again show me in that linked thread where any fat person said it wasn’t their fault? I can show you where the experts started chiming in about how weak fat people are and by [post 37](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12625810&postcount=105) it crossed the line:Which individual fat person who was whining and claiming it’s not his/her fault was that responding to? > > And which of us is blind? And why is that? It’s you. You are the blind one. The subject of a fat person not being responsible for being fat was the whole point of the thread. See, for example, the freaking tile of the thread. Or this part of the OP: > [@](#): > > The claim was that for 1/3 of severely overweight people, no amount of dieting is ever going to help them. The idea of non-responsibility on the part of a fat person for their fatness was baked into the concept of that thread. It was the context in which the thread swam. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/97 "2010-07-03T02:41:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > If all Dseid objected to was people using the term “fatty,” then you’d have a point. But he’s not so you don’t. Yes I do. I was responding to the following: [QUOTE=Rand Rover] On this messageboard, I’ve never seen anyone bash someone else FOR BEING FAT. [/QUOTE] You’re wrong. The opposite of right. You are incorrect. That is my point. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/98 "2010-07-03T02:46:57Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Yes I do. I was responding to the following: > > You’re wrong. The opposite of right. You are incorrect. > > That is my point. OK, my bad. Let me add the following to what I said above: “except for the use of the term ‘fatty’.” But Dseid is objecting to more than that, and is lumping all negative things said to or about fat people into “fat bashing,” even when it’s really whiner bashing. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/99 "2010-07-03T02:48:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Because my dearest Rand Rover I have seen it again and again and am unable to comprehend how you have not. Or do you think that “fattie” is a neutral term? > > Again show me in that linked thread where any fat person said it wasn’t their fault? I can show you where the experts started chiming in about how weak fat people are and by [post 37](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12625810&postcount=105) it crossed the line:Which individual fat person who was whining and claiming it’s not his/her fault was that responding to? > > And which of us is blind? And why is that? First of all, the post you are linking to and saying it is post #37 is completely wrong. You messed that up. Secondly, when one goes to the [actual post #37](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12620991&postcount=37) it is someone who is MAKING FUN OF THE PERSON who claimed it was easy. They are being SARCASTIC to the person who made it seem simple. Note the sarcasm or are you just focusing on the words and not the context? **Palacheck** , the person you are “calling out” for saying “weak ass fattie” was ON YOUR SIDE and making fun of \*\*silenus \*\*who was saying that surgery is for the weak. I really think you’re so obsessed at this point you aren’t even absorbing the words you are reading. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160/100 "2010-07-03T02:51:27Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > First of all, the post you are linking to and saying it is post #37 is completely wrong. You messed that up. > > Secondly, when one goes to the [actual post #37](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12620991&postcount=37) it is someone who is MAKING FUN OF THE PERSON who claimed it was easy. They are being SARCASTIC to the person who made it seem simple. Note the sarcasm or are you just focusing on the words and not the context? > > **Palacheck** , the person you are “calling out” for saying “weak ass fattie” was ON YOUR SIDE and making fun of \*\*silenus \*\*who was saying that surgery is for the weak. > > I really think you’re so obsessed at this point you aren’t even absorbing the words you are reading. That’s a good catch, but does it really matter all that much? There are countless examples of the use of inflammatory language towards fat people on this board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fat-hate-speech-the-role-of-the-bystander/545160.md?page=6)